"Evil" superheroes

[Arnabas]

Well, after seeing the Daredevil movie, I got to thinking: why do all the current superhero movies make the heroes into killers?
-Batman is responsible for the death of the Joker
-Batman lets the Penguin die
-Spiderman lets Uncle Ben's killer die
-Daredevil watches as a rapist gets cut in half in the subway
When I used to read comics, the heroes would SAVE lives-- even when the life in danger was a villain's. The Punisher was an anti-hero, because he would cross the line and kill the bad guys. Now everyone does it (at least in the movies).
Spidey should have saved Uncle Ben's killer... that one scene very nearly ruined the movie for me. Peter should have beat him within an inch of his life, but at the last second he would stop himself. Yeah, sure, the guy died by accident, but the REAL Spiderman would have caught him with a webline and turned him in to the cops.
Daredevil-- to the best of my recollection (didn't read him too often) would not let the rapist die like he did in the movie. He'd find a way to put him in jail.
What's next? Are we going to have a Superman movie where he uses his heat vision to incinerate bad guys? Maybe he'll use his super strength to rip off their heads and then kick them like a soccer ball into the sun...
Maybe we can have a Captain America movie where his shield has a razor edge, then he can use it to decapitate people...
I wonder if, in the new Hulk movie, Hulk eats anyone's brains?
Sigh.

[ 02-18-2003, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Arnabas ]

[Tancred]

I think perhaps it's not that the film-makers are trying to make superheroes 'evil'... more trying to show that these men are after all human, and that they are prone to feelings of hate, anger and vengeance like anyone else... basically, that they can make mistakes. If they can make a mistake, then they can die too, and that means it's not impossible for the bad guys to defeat them.

As for poor ol' Peter Parker... he wasn't the 'real' Spiderman then. [img]smile.gif[/img] Just a very hurt, guilty kid. It's not until later that the whole 'with great power comes great responsibility' caveat becomes his personal motto.

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Arnabas: Well, after seeing the Daredevil movie, I got to thinking: why do all the current superhero movies make the heroes into killers? -Batman is responsible for the death of the Joker -Batman lets the Penguin die -Spiderman lets Uncle Ben's killer die -Daredevil watches as a rapist gets cut in half in the subway When I used to read comics, the heroes would SAVE lives-- even when the life in danger was a villain's. The Punisher was an anti-hero, because he would cross the line and kill the bad guys. Now everyone does it (at least in the movies). Spidey should have saved Uncle Ben's killer... that one scene very nearly ruined the movie for me. Peter should have beat him within an inch of his life, but at the last second he would stop himself. Yeah, sure, the guy died by accident, but the REAL Spiderman would have caught him with a webline and turned him in to the cops. Daredevil-- to the best of my recollection (didn't read him too often) would not let the rapist die like he did in the movie. He'd find a way to put him in jail. What's next? Are we going to have a Superman movie where he uses his heat vision to incinerate bad guys? Maybe he'll use his super strength to rip off their heads and then kick them like a soccer ball into the sun... Maybe we can have a Captain America movie where his shield has a razor edge, then he can use it to decapitate people... I wonder if, in the new Hulk movie, Hulk eats anyone's brains? Sigh.

Personally I think they are pandering the bloodlust of the average death penalty supporting movie goer.

On the other hand the 'mythos' of superheroes saving the bad guys maybe more rooted in the comic book code then in some sort of superior morality.

HULK EAT PUNY HUMANS!!! hehe

[Azred]

<font color = lightgreen>I was talking about this very topic with someone just the other day.
Having a hero with vulnerabilities makes for a much more interesting and believable character than one who is all good all the time. Overcoming emotionial roadblocks to stop evil plots shows that such characters have the grit to do what needs to be done.
On the one hand, this is what makes characters like the movie interpretations of Batman or Spiderman better than the interpretation of Superman. Superman is too strong, fast, and invulnerable to be defeated; his only weakness would be emotional. On the other hand, we as people need someone--even if only the idea of someone--who always manages to do the right thing and save the day.
Unfortunately, this notion would probably not be very commercially viable in the world of Hollywood, which is why Captain America won't be a Marvel hero reinvented for the big screen--he is too good.

One of my favorite writers, Stephen R. Donaldson, once wrote that a story about a hero, a villain, and a damsel in distress is a flat melodrama, but if you can give those characters traits normally associated with the other characters then you create a drama, the basis for any truly great story.

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Re: Daredevil...yes, he does let the rapist suffer a horrible fate in the subway tunnel. However, when he finally confronts the man who killed his father (thereby taking away his sight and normal life) and love interest he does not enact revenge.

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Don't mistake personal choices for revenge. Did Batman kill the Joker? No, because all he did was tie his leg to the statue. The Joker could have let go of the ladder, but he chose not to. The Penguin could have given up or run away; by choosing to stay he ran the risk of being killed.
Norman Osborne suffered from MPD; he could have gotten help for his condition, but instead chose to try and impale Peter. All Peter did was jump out of the way, so how could he have killed the Goblin on purpose?

This is what I think has made the recent movie interpretations of comic characters better than the original characters themselves.</font>

[Timber Loftis]

Well, I was not familiar with the DD comic character, so I just thought he was *darker*. But, I will say.....
(DareDevil spoilers - bigtime)
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Yeah, the guy on the subway was interesting. But, he actually picked bullseye, who was begging for mercy ("you took my hands"), up and tossed him out of the window. Then, he got "good" and spared the KingPin, who had killed his father. What shite. This is part of the silliness of the DD plot that I referred to on the other thread.

[pritchke]

These are my thoughts in a more appropriate thread.

Spoilers
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Yah but at the end of the movie I thought for sure the King Pin was toast (I am thinking they want to use the King Pin in another movie at some point). I think Daredevil's change of heart had to do with three things.
1. Talk with the father
2. Encounter with the kid in the kitchen (reflection of himself and his father)
3. Death of his girl bent on revenge

The thing is the revenge thing that the superhero's overcome makes them more human. The revenge thing is something the Punisher never can beat.
In the end Daredevil wasn't the bad guy and wouldn't let himself become so.

Oh, yah the Bullseye thing I think was a heat of the moment thing were Bullseye just mercilessly killed his girl only about 15 minutes before. He actually had years to get over his father's death. I hadn't really noticed that but a big difference between Bullseye and the King Pin is that the King Pin kills for business and Bullseye is an assassin who kills for the pleasure. Old granny, Bar owner, King Pins body guard. I probably didn't notice because the guy was just plain evil and the killing of the granny on the air plane with a peanut was just to much.

[ 02-18-2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Timber Loftis]

Yet another Dare Devil Spoiler
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Sorry, but I don't think he *killed* Electra. She'll be back. Thank god - I'd pay just to watch her exercise for an hour on-screen.

[pritchke]

More spoliers
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Ya think Timber Loftis, I have been wondering about that to. The little brail charm that was hung, you think she placed it there? She could have done that earlier. I was thinking she may have survived too but it seemed kind of open ended. No funeral, nothing.

Matt(Daredevil) thought she was dead when he left. Could it be possible paramedics reached her in time before she died. I was hoping, but there is no way to know, I would have gave Bullseye the toss after that to.

Than again another question is did he kill Bullseye? I know it was a pretty bad fall about 4 stories, but people have survived bad falls before in real life and since this is a movie well.... I am assuming he was toast though he isn't much of a villian without the use of his hands.

[ 02-18-2003, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by pritchke: Matt(Daredevil) thought she was dead when he left. Could it be possible paramedics reached her in time before she died. I was hoping, but there is no way to know, I would have gave Bullseye the toss after that to.

And in typical open-end fashion I could have sworn I saw Bullseye moving after his fall, maybe he will be back too. I thought he made a good villian.

[Sneeki Two]

Spoiler
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In the comic that the movie is based off of(came out in the early 80's), Bullseye did live. He and Daredevil had a big chase after Elektra was killed(btw the scene where he impales her is exactly like it was drawn in the comic) and it ended with the two hanging from some suspended wire.

Daredevil had grabbed Bullseye's wrist as he was falling and saved him, but Bullseye refused to let Daredevil be the one to save him, so he stabbed at DD's hand and made him let go. Bullseye fell several stories and shattered his body in a dark alley, if I remember right. Bullseye did live but he was horribly wounded. He eventually returned for payback after his skeleton was pieced back together again by the same people that gave Wolverine his adamantium skeleton and claws.

BTW Elektra did die, but somehow made it back to the living world (can't remember how, Though I do remember she wore white instead of her usual red).

Link to the issue described:

http://www.manwithoutfear.com/issuesinfo.cgi?issue=181

Just some Food for Thought

[ 02-18-2003, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: Sneeki Two ]