ONE question to all the atheists out there....

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Rokenn: The one thing I do deeply resent though are the attempts but many, mostly conservative, Christian groups to get various state sponsorships for their beliefs. The wall separating the Church from the State should be so tall and wide that even an omnipotent deity can not breach it. You do realize that the seperation of church and state only gaurentees freedom from a state imposed religion ala King James. It does not gaurentee freedom from religion nor does it say that no official buildings and or grounds may be used by a religious group.

[/QUOTE]But it should! [img]smile.gif[/img]

The way I learned it, the idea that there is a "place" called hell is not the generally accepted notion in most modern christian beliefs, Hell is being defined as being denied the face of god for eternity, in otherwords when you die, you do not end up with god. Again this may be more jesuit heresy though [img]smile.gif[/img]

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by Vaskez: *snip*- You are happy as you are and don't need anything more and don't care where we came from. This seems a bit naive to me.*snip*

To me this statement seems naive. One can only be happy if one believes in God? Are you really sure about that? I don´t know if you are a happier man for beleiving in God. Don´t take me wrong here, if you think/feel/believe (not sure which word to use lol) you are happier for beleiving I´m glad to hear it. But do you have any idea if I would be happier if I believed in God? I think not! And I see you have no interest in evolution what so ever. And those researching about it must of course all believe in God then otherwise they wouldn´t want to know how humans developed. If this was true it seems very strange that God is very seldom mentioned in scientific research. Strange isn´t it?

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by WillowIX: quote: Originally posted by Vaskez: *snip*- You are happy as you are and don't need anything more and don't care where we came from. This seems a bit naive to me.*snip*

To me this statement seems naive. One can only be happy if one believes in God? Are you really sure about that? I don´t know if you are a happier man for beleiving in God. Don´t take me wrong here, if you think/feel/believe (not sure which word to use lol) you are happier for beleiving I´m glad to hear it. But do you have any idea if I would be happier if I believed in God? I think not! And I see you have no interest in evolution what so ever. And those researching about it must of course all believe in God then otherwise they wouldn´t want to know how humans developed. If this was true it seems very strange that God is very seldom mentioned in scientific research. Strange isn´t it?[/QUOTE]LOL you have a very mixed bag of ideas there. I never said that one can only be happy if one believes in God? Where the hell did I say that? It says "you are happy as you are" this was in no way meant to imply that that is not happy enough or whatever, you're imagining things. I don't know if I am a happier man.
The problem with this thread is I have constantly mixed my beliefs with generally accepted beliefs etc. I'm often not very happy with my life at all but this has no bearing on whether I believe or not and sometimes it seems like vice-versa as well. Among other reasons, believing makes sense so I do.

I mentioned happiness saying that people who believe might be happier that's all.

That's not a very funny sarcastic comment about people studying evolution not wanting to know about it if they don't believe. I don't know what your basis is for saying that. And I don't at all see what point you are trying to make about it being strange that God is not mentioned in scientific research? Why would he be? While science and God can co-exist the aim of science is to find a scientific not a supernatural explanation for things.
Either that was a very mixed-up post you made or I'm a dumbass for not seeing your basis and logic.

[homer]

I do not have enough information or personal knowledge about any particular religion, so I cannot argue specifics. In general, most of the people I know, who follow a religion, are good people. However, I believe they would be good people regardless of their religion. Do religions make someone a good person? Maybe, but if that were entirely true everyone who was religious would be a good person; I think we can all agree that this is not true. If you kill in the name of a religion, in most people’s opinion, then you are a bad person.

I believe religion and faith is not something that can be dictated. The first definition of faith in webster’s third is: unquestioning belief that dose not require proof or evidence. How can you teach someone about something without the evidence to back it up; in my opinion you cannot. You can teach someone why you believe in something or why others might believe in something, but you cannot teach someone to believe just because you do.

The argument about an after life is also something I believe cannot be taught. Again, there is no evidence to back it up. The only way to find out what happens when you die is to die. As such, it makes it difficult to then relate to others what has happened.

[img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]
I am a father and I teach my children to be good people. That includes being tolerant of what other people believe, even if you personally think they are wrong. I will not push any religion on my children, however I will support whatever decisions they make in the future.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Grungi - I'm afraid you may have misinterpreted the last statement of my first post. You claimed that I said God would let you into Heaven because you have lived a good life. That is not true. I said that God judges the person's heart. You say you are a good person and live a good life....I'm sure that's true. But then again, I don't know anybody who claims to be a bad person living a bad life. Everyone thinks they are "good" in their own way. Living a "good life" according to your standards is not enough. Living a "good life" by God's standards is what counts...and even then, it is up to God alone to decide if your life, actions, and deeds have been "good enough".

When I said that God judges a person's heart, I was talking more along the lines of someone like Ghandi. He rejected "organized religion" because of the bigotry and hypocrisy he found in some churches - yet he lived a life that mirrored the teachings of Jesus. Now, according to my interpretation of the Bible - these good works by themselves would NOT be enough to get him into Heaven...only God's Grace could do that. And I acknowledge the possibility that God may have judged Ghandi based on his heart and on his works rather than on his religious affiliation.

In a way, I'm just "hedging my own bets" about the absoluteness of my previous stance. .

Originally posted by Masklinn: God is Love and every Men are his children. Therefor...everyone one should have access to heaven. Can you imagin God refusing someone, knowing that He is Love ? There are so much flaws

Masklinn - Love and discipline are not exclusive, and punishment for those who willingly reject God's Love and His offer for eternal bliss is not inconsistent with God's Image at all.

I love my children very dearly, but I will still punish them if they disobey me...and I will punish them severely if the incident warrants it. That doesn't mean that I love them any less (although THEY claim it does ). The same reasoning applies to God. He has told us of His Love and offer of eternal Salvation. He has also told us the penalty for rejecting His offer. The choice, however, is left to the individual.

Timber - I have a great deal of respect for your views, despite the difference in our personal theologies. However, I do find phrases like "looking for something to latch onto" offensive and demeaning. I have also been called "weak-minded" by atheists, because I cannot accept the "horrible reality" of everyday life without the promise of "something better". Both of these statements are blantantly false and extremely arrogant (IMHO). The implication is that you and other atheists are "mentally superior" to poor, weak-minded Christians who simply can't cope with the big, bad world without latching onto some imaginary being for a cosmic security blanket. I understand that the statements aren't intended to be arrogant or demeaning, but that is how they come across.

I also acknowledge that Christians can be just as arrogant when they insist that "you really DO believe in God, you just won't admit it to yourself" or when they feel sad for the simplistically naive view of atheists (as mentioned in the article Roken provided a link to).

I'm not angered or upset by your remarks, TL, because I know any offense I may feel was purely unintentional. I'm just trying to point out how they sound from this side.

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by homer: I do not have enough information or personal knowledge about any particular religion, so I cannot argue specifics. In general, most of the people I know, who follow a religion, are good people. However, I believe they would be good people regardless of their religion. Do religions make someone a good person? Maybe, but if that were entirely true everyone who was religious would be a good person; I think we can all agree that this is not true. If you kill in the name of a religion, in most people’s opinion, then you are a bad person. I believe religion and faith is not something that can be dictated. The first definition of faith in webster’s third is: unquestioning belief that dose not require proof or evidence. How can you teach someone about something without the evidence to back it up; in my opinion you cannot. You can teach someone why you believe in something or why others might believe in something, but you cannot teach someone to believe just because you do. The argument about an after life is also something I believe cannot be taught. Again, there is no evidence to back it up. The only way to find out what happens when you die is to die. As such, it makes it difficult to then relate to others what has happened. [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] I am a father and I teach my children to be good people. That includes being tolerant of what other people believe, even if you personally think they are wrong. I will not push any religion on my children, however I will support whatever decisions they make in the future.

The first 2 paragraphs have been covered above. I made that point several times that you cannot push true faith onto anyone and this in fact gives a lot of weight to the sheer number of believers out there that they may be onto something.

About afterlife - technically there IS evidence. Well in a court of law a witness account is evidence right? Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, in the same way there are MANY accounts of people who have been diagnosed as clinically dead but their heart restarted minutes or hours later. I have read a book about this. They all give remarkably similar accounts of feeling at great peace and seeing a light at the end of a tunnel. This does not sound like there's nothing does it?
Well place as much weight on this as you want, just saying that technically there is evidence if you call 1st person accounts evidence.

Oh and another good post Cerek.

[ 01-22-2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Timber Loftis]

I have two things to interject at this point:

1. The title of this thread is a HUGE misnomer.

2. My God can eat your God for breakfast. ALL HAIL CTHULU!!!!!
[img]graemlins/hidesbehindsofa.gif[/img]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Hunter - Several pages back, you asked about the different versions of the Bible and Qu'ran. Yorick pointed out that these were different translations rather than completely different versions...but your original question is still a valid one.

Let me turn the question around a bit. You study martial arts. How do you know the current style you are studying is the "right" one or the "best" one? There are hundreds of different styles (and variations of styles) in existence. How can you truly know you have chosen the best of these options?

You say your training and physical abilities have helped you survive many hostile encounters. That may be true, but the results could have been the same with an entirely different fighting style...and for every move you can do, someone from an opposing school has a countermove.

So how do you know who is right????

The answer is that you choose what suits your personal style the best. The same applies to the different "variations" of Religion in general, and Christianity specifically. I have many good friends that belong to different denominations than I. There is a plethora of "common ground" between our belief systems, but there are also some key differences.

How do I reconcile these differences? I don't!

I have no right to say that somebody else's relationship with God and His Holy Will is "less right" than my own. Just like you can't say your chosen style is inherently superior to somebody elses.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I have two things to interject at this point: 1. The title of this thread is a HUGE misnomer. 2. My God can eat your God for breakfast. ALL HAIL CTHULU!!!!! [img]graemlins/hidesbehindsofa.gif[/img]

1. I agree.

2. {haha}I played Call of Cthulu in college. My characters all died quickly and often. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]