Religion II

[Cerek the Barbaric]

I'm opening this second Religion thread for a couple of reasons:

First, I am bringing a discussion I'm having with Wolfgir into this thread because it is Off-Topic for the thread we started in (Sex before Marriage).

Second, it will give others a chance to discuss thier religious views and opinions.

I decided not to BUMP Neb's original thread because it was already 6 pages long with 147 entries, so I assume it was close to being locked.

While the opening topic concerns Christianity, the thread is not limited to any particular faith or religious practice. If it concerns a ritual, ceremony, or theological belief, then it's considered to be On-Topic.

Now, to continue my discussion with Wolfgir:

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Originally posted by WOLFGIR:

Oki, well in your view (not a degrading thing, this is from pure interest, does the event spoke of when Jesus tells the people that he who is without sin should cast the first stone?
In my view as only "reading" the bible, I felt like Jesus either showed alot of mercy or that he to had done some sins, but that as long as you did the right thing and forgave people and asked for forgiveness to both god and the one you had commited the sin against their was a solution..

And no Cerek, it is not an important part of my view, but since you posted about it I became interested in learning more from your point of view and I hope (paranoia posting) that I haven´t been offending or anything, I question because I am curious, and I have always found your posts very accurate and also with good information. So if you would like to tell me more, please do, either here or by mail!

Cheers!
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As Yorick and I pointed out, Jesus was without sin. The story you listed above (to bring others up to date) was an example of God's love and mercy towards sinners....and that Christians should never believe themselves to be better than anyone else...because every Christian has also sinned against God.

I mentioned that I had also been taught that Jesus had committed one sin in his lifetime. That was the episode where he threw the moneychangers out of the temple. My Sunday School teacher said that Jesus "had" to commit one "obligatory" sin due to the fact that he was human. It sounded logical at the time, but a good friend later showed me the critical flaw in that logic.

God requires a sacrificial atonement for sin. In the OT, this was in the form of burnt offerings. But in the NT, Jesus was sent as the "sacrificial lamb". He came to be sacrificed on the cross as an atonement for all of our sins. He paid the price required for our forgiveness. If He had sinned Himself, then His death would only have atoned for His sins, not ours.

By living a sin-free life, Jesus' sacrifice atoned for every sin committed by every person from that moment forward. All that is required now is for a person to recognize the sins in their life and accept the sacrifice Jesus made as an atonement for those sins, and God instantly "wipes the slate clean" and forgives them of all their sins.

BTW, recognizing sin in your life DOES NOT mean you're a "bad or evil" person. It just means that we fall short of the ideal standard set by Jesus as to how we should live and conduct ourselves.

[WOLFGIR]

Hi Cerek, thanks for your post. I was looking for my bible yesterday to see if I could find the exact phrase, but I´m afraid that it is still in my parents house..

I was trying to find an exact phrase, just when Jesus says that not even he can throw a stone, but this is well, marking words which I hope you guys understand, don´t want to come down on your beliefs here, just interested in seeing how you all interpretate things in it and how that corresponds to my own thinking of it.

I will try and get my hands on the bible or if you can find the esxact english phrase it would be fun to see how they have translated it! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I hope this thread gets interesting a one!

[K T Ong]

There's one question I would like to ask: what is religion? How do you define religion? This is not a taunt or challenge of any kind, please, just a question. Does religion (in your understanding) necessarily entail the explicit worship of gods or a god -- of special beings (or just a special being) who presumably created all things and kept things running? Would a clergy and sacred texts constitute a fundamental aspect of religion (in your understanding)? Or is religion ultimately just a conviction, a world view the individual human being endorses regarding the nature of the Universe and what it implies for the human world -- which presumably guides his/her thought and conduct?

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

[*\Conan/*]

Religion is a man made way of setting up a system where one can earn approval of ones higher power.
Traditions, idol worship, and futile chants are not where its at in my book. To many times religion is like a bucket of cold water thrown on a fire. Spoiling good peoples geniuine desire to fill an empty spot in their lives.
Interpretations have divided kindoms and countrys, as well as the closest of friends. In my experiences I have learned that Historically the Bible is Very accurate. Evidence that demands a verdict to be explored by ones own convictions and tested in light of RELATIONSHIPS ...including the most important one you can have..
Hmmm..I hope you guys dont mind me joining in on this topic. I feel like sometimes if one does not present a theoretical stance at one point people are ignored and bypassed. I promise to stay with this thread and be vigailant to everyones responses. Thank you [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

*\Conan/*

Welcome to the thread, brother. As I said in the opening, Everybody's Welcome...that included those with different religious preferences and those with none at all. As long as your reply deals with some form of religion (pro or con), then it is On Topic.

Let's just keep in nice and show respect for ALL views and opinions.

K T Ong

Welcome to the Forum. I don't think I've "met" you before. Glad to see you here. You raised a good question - How do you define Religion?.

fable asked that same question in the original Religion thread. I've BUMPed it up to the first page so you could read some of the responses that were given in that thread. The question and responses start on Page 6.

[Garnet FalconDance]

One of the things that really soured me on Christianity *in general* (and I know it is the exception rather than the rule) is the notion that once a person accepts Jesus as Saviour, God forgives all your sins being translated as a blanket forgiveness no matter how you act thereafter. I have known and seen people who go through the motions and after their grand revelation of "finding God" (like *He* was the one lost!) shortly after treating others as or more horridly than ever before, commiting 'sins' and maintaining it was all forgiven due to God's Grace!

Maybe I'm not expressing this very well, and I *do* know this is a minority of self-righteous idiots rather than true Christians, but it still gets me riled.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Garnet

I find that you always speak in a straightforward, yet eloquent, manner.

You are absolutely correct that some Christians think they are on Cruise Control after getting "Saved" and can act however they want.

My answer to that is that there Salvation wasn't genuine. They did - indeed - just "go through the motions" (what a perceptive lady, you are). When you truly accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour, the Holy Spirit enters and indwells with your spirit and the person undergoes a true "change of heart".

That doesn't mean that they won't sin anymore - I sin everyday. But now, the Holy Spirit shows me how displeasing my sin is to God and I have to ask forgiveness DAILY. Also, I have to genuinely(sp?) repent of my sin and try to overcome it. So I can't say "OK God, sorry about doing that today, and I might as well go ahead and apologize for tomorrow too while I'm here".

That attitude does not reflect an honost effort to resist temptation and avoid sin.

So, as yo can see, Christians are NOT given a FREE RIDE after being Saved. In fact, the opposite is true. Once the Holy Spirit indwells within them, they have even less excuse to act in a manner such as you describe.

Alas, some of them do though, and they besmirch Christianity in the process.

[Garnet FalconDance]

Cerek, I know you're being sincere, but you should see the grin on my face at the thought of you saying "Ok, God, sorry about..... might as well go ahead and apologize for tomorrow too while I'm here". I can't help it .

I suppose such besmirchers (your word is so much nicer than ones I might have employed) exist in *all* religions/belief systems.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Glad it gave you a giggle, Garnet.

It was a tongue-in-cheek parody of the attitude some Christians (including myself) take at times.

[*\Conan/*]

Hi Garnet !
I have read alot of your posts and you express yourself very well I might add. Self-righteousness is exactly the right words there. What other general things sour your views? Just a question.... it gos for everyone out there also. I am very intrested in knowing. Perhaps some light could be shed any other harbored feelings twards Christianity from past experiences dealing with people in this Religion..? Anyone?
Ive got one; mybe you guys read this in the past once but I received Communion in a Catholic church. I took the bread in my hand and proceded back to my seat to remember what it meant in my own way. I was stopped in the middle of the isle and forced to eat the waffer in front of the whole assembly. Really embarrasing.. I felt 3ft tall. Instead of quietly telling me my mistake in the ritualism of this Church I was chasened and humiliated. I wonder how many others have been caught up in awkward situations where the measurement of faith is reflected upon the responses of men just as myself.? I hope I am making sense of all this and my point of religion..I think I will stop here for now [img]smile.gif[/img]