Mr Saddam, you have mail!

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by whacky: Edit: Just wanted to add my opinions, i'm still neutral in my standpoints, and i hope not to offend anyone at all.

NP dude, I honestly wasn't offended, hence the smilie in my light hearted response.

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: 2. Americans are always and forever rather oblivious, as a group, as to how disliked their government is around the world.

Nah I dont think thats true. Anyone that watches the news will see that people hate America. Its just, I for one, dont give a crap.[/QUOTE]Do you give a crap when the US suffers a terrorist attack because of this hatred?[/QUOTE]*sigh*

How many times am I going to have to explain that sentence?

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: The problem is, we're not *just* talking about shouting. If people in other countries want to get angry with one another...that's fine. You dont see the US jumping into British elections, or even into Iraqi 'elections'(even though the latter are a joke). It's when it gets beyond just shouting and being loud and turns into armed conflict that it becomes a problem. And heck...sometimes we even let that go. Other sovreign countries are allowed to have their internal problems. And sometimes those problems even spill over into other sovreign nations. And again...we(the US) generally are even willing to let that go, unless we have a mutual assistance treaty with the attacked nation. But when another nation asks for help, or one group is being 'ethnically cleansed'...well, are we not honour bound, again, by simple compassion, to help? The U.S. spends more money on foreign aid than ANY OTHER NATION ON EARTH(I'm talking raw dollars, not percentages)! That's pure compassion. Are you going to denegrate us for being compassionate to our fellow human beings ? There are a great many of your fellow Europeans who are more than willing to do just that.

Nachtrafe, read my post again : I never said your (I mean, the 'US guy' as representative of the US common culture, as much as you as a person) point of view is wrong ! [img]smile.gif[/img] What I said is that both your perception and your solution may not be the only good ones. I do strongly believe that there is no one true way.

Now, in any discussion, I am telling you that your viewpoint is good, and my viewpoint is good too, and we should work together, and you reply to me that your viewpoint is the only good one, and you are going to implement it no matter what I think, is it a good basis for the discussion ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now, coming back to the matter we were discussing, I never told you compassion does not require action, I just told you you should take other considerations into account too !

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: Well...let me offer you an analogy. I'm no mechanic, but, I have owned several cars(and some of them were even those 'evil' 4 wheel drive types [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). And I *know* that it's a heck of a lot cheaper to practice preventative maintainence than to wait for the engine to seize up and replace it.

Nah, I don't like your analogy. Because in that case you own the car. I am all for prevention ! But, to come back to the previous analogy of the house, would you, for the sake of prevention, go to your neighbor's house, tell him "Oh, you look like someone who may cause trouble, so I'm just going to sit there and point my gun through your window, now go on with your life" ?

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: Now, I understand where you're coming from about culture differences Moraine, but, given the option, I'd much rather jump the gun and make a 'interfere'(and even be villified by the finger pointers of the world), rather than give a madman the chance to 'cleanse' millions. Just my opinion though.

Again, I never said your reaction is not a good one, I said maybe it is not the ONLY good one. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: Erm...and dont even get me started on the UN. The only thing the UN is good at is sitting on it's collective thumb and flapping it's collective lips. Period.

Well, if the UN countries all try to enforce their viewpoint as the only valid one, then the UN is bound to be an arena of bickering with nothing much accomplished. While if they work together, conscious that we share a collective world and that the different views provided by the various cultures all add a positive light, then great things will happen ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

There is no one true way. Or as Yorick would say, Viva la difference ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-31-2002, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Moiraine ]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Horatio: you know, iron Ranger, that's not a half bad idea. Whatever way you look at it, the "war on Terror" started because USA offered help/interfered (I'm not gonna judge, it's not my place to and I doubt you'd care anyway, so pick whichever one you like) in other countries. Maybe the USA should watch out for who they help in the future. They supplied the IRA with weapons, after all. Don't wanna be identified as a yank basher, just adding my thoughts [img]smile.gif[/img]

Harsh Horatio - it was not the USA which provided weapons and bombs that killed and maimed British and Irish civilians. It was individual, ignorant and misguided American citizens which funded the IRA.[/QUOTE]DING DING DING DING DING!!!!

And Donut wins the prize! The IRA(and Al-Queda and Hezbella(sp) and Islamic Jihad, and myriad other terror groups) are NOT funded by "The US" they are funded by individuals. And unfortunately, the majority of these individuals give their money with the best of intentions. When someone comes to your door asking for money for 'poor starving third world children' most Americans(in fact, most people anywhere with a heart) are happy to try and give what they can to help. It's not the fault of the people donating that most(or in some cases ALL) of this money is siphoned off to psychotic lunatics who kill civilians. Fortunately, a great many of the IRA 'assistance' funds were shut down and now(despite HUGE pressure from whiny leftist kooks) the Bush administration is shutting down many of the other terrorist funds in the US.

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Hey! This reminds me of every argument that ever made my head hurt in the old War Forum. BTW, I thought that argumentative forum of bile was suppose to be archived for easy access. What happened? Did someone read my responses to this post? [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Man...I can SOOOOOOOOOOO identify with ya Ronn. Here, have an asprin, I think I have a few left in my bottle. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I have seen lately a regular statement that "there is no one right way" and "There is no one right solution" And I can agree with that, but I think when that kind of phrase is focused on too often, you forget that while there is No One Right Solution thare can be and ARE absolutly WRONG ways and solutions.

Just thought that this should be pointed out.

[ 10-31-2002, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Moiraine: Nachtrafe, read my post again : I never said your (I mean, the 'US guy' as representative of the US common culture, as much as you as a person) point of view is wrong ! [img]smile.gif[/img] What I said is that both your perception and your solution may not be the only good ones. I do strongly believe that there is no one true way. Now, in any discussion, I am telling you that your viewpoint is good, and my viewpoint is good too, and we should work together, and you reply to me that your viewpoint is the only good one, and you are going to implement it no matter what I think, is it a good basis for the discussion ? [img]smile.gif[/img] Now, coming back to the matter we were discussing, I never told you compassion does not require action, I just told you you should take other considerations into account too !

Moraine, I did read your post. I hope you dont think I took offense, cuz I didn't. [img]smile.gif[/img] However, yes, I *do* think my view is the best one. I certainly wouldn't choose a stance that I thought was the *second* best one. It's like this, if I firmly believe that the sky is green, then no matter how many times you try to tell me it's blue, I'm *NOT* going to say "You know, you're right, it *might* be blue." Maybe that makes me arrogant, I dont know, but it's the way I feel.

And again, re: compassion...Well, if I've already thought the matter through, and decided on the best course of action...why do I need to ask anyone's permission to act on it? If I see someone being beaten to a pulp, I'm certainly not going to gather others, hold a few panel discussions, and wait for consensus to be achieved...I'm simply going to stop the attack. I'll try and figure out why the attack was happening afterwards, after I've helped the attacked to his/her feet and stopped the bleeding. Again...maybe that makes me arrogant...and again, I dont know...but it's still the way I feel.

Originally posted by Moiraine: Nah, I don't like your analogy. Because in that case you own the car. I am all for prevention ! But, to come back to the previous analogy of the house, would you, for the sake of prevention, go to your neighbor's house, tell him "Oh, you look like someone who may cause trouble, so I'm just going to sit there and point my gun through your window, now go on with your life" ?

No, I agree, that's not reasonable. However, since I'm sure we're alluding to the current situation in Iraq, lets make the example a little more realistic. The guy next door doesn't just 'look like someone who may cause trouble'. He's gassed the dog, gave baseball bats to the kids that destroyed my windows, tried to annex his other neighbor's property, and is in the process of building a bomb in his basement. So yeah...I think that taking him out before he can blow up my house with the bomb is a completely rational and moral action.

Originally posted by Moiraine: Again, I never said your reaction is not a good one, I said maybe it is not the ONLY good one. [img]smile.gif[/img]

And again dear lady, I have to disagree. I've already thought about my reaction, I've debated it, conferred with my friends, and even had an internal vote on the matter, and I happen to think it's a good choice. So I'm going to go ahead with it.(WOW...This Analogy-Speak is getting complicated. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] )

Originally posted by Moiraine: Well, if the UN countries all try to enforce their viewpoint as the only valid one, then the UN is bound to be an arena of bickering with nothing much accomplished. While if they work together, conscious that we share a collective world and that the different views provided by the various cultures all add a positive light, then great things will happen ! [img]smile.gif[/img] There is no one true way. Or as Yorick would say, Viva la difference ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Sorry...After having been a student of politics most of my life, and seen the 'effectiveness' of the UN...No thanks. [img]smile.gif[/img]

LOL...And yeah, Viva la difference!

But...I'm still right. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

You know I was a member when the War forum was around but I never even had a chance to visit. It sounds like I would have enjoyed the place

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by MagiK: You know I was a member when the War forum was around but I never even had a chance to visit. It sounds like I would have enjoyed the place

I visted there a couple of times, "war forum" couldnt have been a more appropratie name for it.

But I have wondered, what happened to all of it? Its not archived, I wonder if its all just deleted or what.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by MagiK: You know I was a member when the War forum was around but I never even had a chance to visit. It sounds like I would have enjoyed the place

Magik, my man, the War Forum would have made you ]SSSSSSMMMMMMMMIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

Sometimes it got ugly, but there were some great hardcore debates going on there that people put LOTS of effort into! Once we got past the "your mama" phase, it was very informative. Um, we did get past the "your mama" stage didn't we? [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

It was also time consuming! I don't even remember most of October(when I discovered it) and November of 2001 because I was so busy posting. I went from having less than 100 posts, after a year here, to having 15 or 16 hundred posts in just two months. 90+ percent of those posts were in the War Forum.

Yorick, Silver Cheeta, Traci, Donut, Dio, Fljotsdale, Ryanamur, and too many others to mention "laying the **smack down**" on a daily basis. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I miss it sometimes, but in the end, it died, not with a bang, but with a wimper.

If I remember correctly, it was suppose to be archived after it was closed. We'll have to ask Ziroc to find out for sure.

[ 10-31-2002, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]