standing for peace

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: bin Laden and people like him will be SO happy to see this build-up of military force. Does anyone think that people like him are worried by it? Does anyone think he CARES about the Afghans, or the Pakistanis or ANYONE? Of course not. This overreaction is JUST what he was looking for. When the US, with the rest of the West backing it up, actually attacks Afghanistan and 'accidentally' kills inocent women and children - as they will - then look to ALL the East turning against us. Fun, huh?

Spot on, nordic leopard lady.....

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[Moridin]

Can a pacifist please tell us what should be done then? Should we hold meetings and pass laws and write reports until another attack happens? Will you be so understanding when the next planes crashes into Big Ben or the Parliment, or the Bundesbank or any other place? How many of our innocents must die until we react?

I cannot speak for everyone that condones military action, but for me it needs to be done! Will it solve the worldwide problem of terrorism? NO! But it is a necceassry starting point...this is not a problem that will be solved over-night, but it needs a beginning and military force (whether it be for show or for action) is that beginning. If bin Laden had an 'escape' planned then he surely had more attacks planned also. He is going to hit us, hide, hit us again, hide, and so on. He needs to be taken out, as do the governments that support and harbor him and any other terrorist groups.

Sure it is easy for me to say this, living in a comfortable home with all of my capitalist comforts, but I know this...I live in a high-rise bldg in a major US city and in the direct flight path for the airport, and it still freaks me out every time a plane flies overhead!

I do not wish for the killing of innocents, but I will not sit back and hope for a peaceful solution while waiting for the next attack!

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: bin Laden and people like him will be SO happy to see this build-up of military force. Does anyone think that people like him are worried by it? Does anyone think he CARES about the Afghans, or the Pakistanis or ANYONE? Of course not. This overreaction is JUST what he was looking for. When the US, with the rest of the West backing it up, actually attacks Afghanistan and 'accidentally' kills inocent women and children - as they will - then look to ALL the East turning against us. Fun, huh?

No he is not happy for this! I bet he didn't expect it at all. His network bombed the WTC in '93 and the world stood pat and did nothing. His network killed 18 special forces troops in Somalia and the world stood pat and did nothing. His network killed 230+ people in Africa and the world stood pat and did nothing. His network bombed a US destroyer and the world stood pat and did nothing. What he expected was for us to sit back and do nothing, why wouldn't he...it seems to be our natural response. He is sitting in a bunker somewhere in the mountains of Afghanastan shitting himself and listening for the hissing sound that falling bombs make!



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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Tancred]

Originally posted by tracey: america is unfortunately not actually helping itself at the moment. more and more people are beginning to see the dreadful and extreme loss of life that is going to occur if she is allowed to have her way. negotiation without this mad escalation of arms and threats will at least calm the situation down somewhat. the governments of the middle east are feeling understandably very threatened, and america merely reinforcing its position as a bullyboy who will overeact if others' don't comply. she is behaving like a spoiled child who has no regard for the consequences because she believes she is in control. well, she isn't. once the ball starts rolling 'control' will be but a dream concept. i can't get my head around why this isn't sinking in.

Dreadful and extreme loss of life? At least the US are going to be targeting military targets, not civilian ones. How can you say America is over-reacting? Someone has killed thousands of people - someone actually sat down one day and said 'we're going to kill lots of people, and here's how we're going to do it' - and are going to get away with it unless something is done! There is no formal extradition policy, no diplomatic channel here because both sides have been enemies for years. What other option is there but a war to topple the government that seems to support international terrorism against the world - NOT just America - besides walk away and forget it ever happened, and wait for it to happen again? Stop bashing America, and realise there is nothing else that can realistically be done!

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Moridin: No he is not happy for this! I bet he didn't expect it at all. His network bombed the WTC in '93 and the world stood pat and did nothing. His network killed 18 special forces troops in Somalia and the world stood pat and did nothing. His network killed 230+ people in Africa and the world stood pat and did nothing. His network bombed a US destroyer and the world stood pat and did nothing. What he expected was for us to sit back and do nothing, why wouldn't he...it seems to be our natural response. He is sitting in a bunker somewhere in the mountains of Afghanastan shitting himself and listening for the hissing sound that falling bombs make!

Let's agree to disagree on this one, Moridin! After all, only time will prove one of us right or wrong. No point in falling out over it!

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[skywalker]

We should just see what our government and our allies will do in Afghanistan. Then when the body count is numbered between innocent, enemy, and our good men and women in the military, we shall see what has been accomplished! I wonder how we will all feel?

You want to know what I think Moridin (I never ever said do nothing, for the last time, I say this), I think we should find him and assassinate the wretch, and use him as an example to all who look to kill the innocent, to cause terror for all our children.

Then we need to change the way we treat all nations in this world...use respect and fairness. Set a good example! That's what I think, but of course, I have no power in these United States.

Mark

[Moridin]

Originally posted by skywalker: Then we need to change the way we treat all nations in this world...use respect and fairness. Set a good example! That's what I think, but of course, I have no power in these United States. Mark

And yes you do have power in these United States, we all do!

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Let's agree to disagree on this one, Moridin! After all, only time will prove one of us right or wrong. No point in falling out over it!

Agreed

I hope the only thing that is proven is that terrorism has no place in this world and will not be tolerated, accepted or supported!


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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[skywalker]

Originally posted by Moridin: Agreed I hope the only thing that is proven is that terrorism has no place in this world and will not be tolerated, accepted or supported!

Exactly Moridin! As long we do not waver from the road of somehow (who can knows exactly how)ending terrorism! It will take a lot of new ideas and free thinking to do so!

Mark

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Moridin: Can a pacifist please tell us what should be done then? Should we hold meetings and pass laws and write reports until another attack happens? Will you be so understanding when the next planes crashes into Big Ben or the Parliment, or the Bundesbank or any other place? How many of our innocents must die until we react? I cannot speak for everyone that condones military action, but for me it needs to be done! Will it solve the worldwide problem of terrorism? NO! But it is a necceassry starting point...this is not a problem that will be solved over-night, but it needs a beginning and military force (whether it be for show or for action) is that beginning. If bin Laden had an 'escape' planned then he surely had more attacks planned also. He is going to hit us, hide, hit us again, hide, and so on. He needs to be taken out, as do the governments that support and harbor him and any other terrorist groups. Sure it is easy for me to say this, living in a comfortable home with all of my capitalist comforts, but I know this...I live in a high-rise bldg in a major US city and in the direct flight path for the airport, and it still freaks me out every time a plane flies overhead! I do not wish for the killing of innocents, but I will not sit back and hope for a peaceful solution while waiting for the next attack!

Look Moridin. I lived in London for 18 years, during much of which time I was exposed to IRA terrorist activity (until the peace process started kicking in). We never knew where they would strike next. I have lost count of the times I've been evacuated off the tube during bomb scares. I heard bombs go off, and felt the ground shake as they did so. I have friends who have lost relatives in bomb attacks. We never really felt safe during those years. We knew the terrorists could strike at any time. So, yes, I know what it feels like.

The Irish had it a lot worse, of course! My last long term relationship was with a guy from Northern Ireland, from Derry. What he told me made my hair stand on end.

Having said that, what should Britain have done, in your opinion. Gone in and dropped bombs on Northern Ireland? Declared war? (Remembering that we too, like America in Afghanistan, did a lot to create the original problem.) I don't think so.

Just to go off the main topic for a sec, - as you're probably aware, misguided Americans have been funding, and are still funding, IRA activity. I was listening to an American guy on the radio just the other day, who was insisting that funding was limited to helping the families of the people in prison. Why give money to these people at all, in any way shape or form? (Yes, I know that's not all Americans. But Americans ARE funding terrorism in Britain and Northern Ireland! Some are continuing to do it, even now...)

In reply to your first point, no, I am not saying hold meetings and write reports til the next big attack! What I'm saying is for America to get together under law with the rest of the world, and get some proper legislation and a proper, thoughtout coherent strategy in place to eradicate or at least diminish terrorism. Stop acting unilaterally. You are not the only ones to suffer from terrorist activity.

That includes looking at the why's and wherefore's of terrorism, (cause and effect) forging better links with the middle east, getting the first steps in place towards pursuing a long term strategy that would be designed to benefit the many, rather short term strategies as has been the case in the past. (E.g. Russia and America f*cking off and leaving Afghanistan to fend for herself, after being lucky enough to get caught in the middle of the cold war. (Superpowers - jesus christ. Let's just walz all over the middle east and who gives a flying whatsit about the damage we cause, and the trouble we lay up for outselves.)

America's policies in the past, in the Middle East as elsewhere, have been self interested to say the least. It's time America, (and Europe!) began pursuing policies of enlightened self interest, i.e. what's good for you is good for me. (That idea of a win/win situation...) Looking at the possible consequences of what is done, rather than blundering around flailing wildly as you grab at whatever goody (e.g. oil oil oil oil oil) you happen to be after at the time.




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