The murder of a murderer....

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Sounds good enough, I just can't see the point for more death when it is unnecessary, and by keeping them somewhere, you stop them from killing, an they aren't killed, so no more death from them, or of them.
Less death is a good thing, right?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

This thread appears to be getting closer and closer to being LOCKED DOWN.

I took a little time to research the cases of "botched executions" Dramnek provided. Due to time limitations, I was only able to find information on the victims of two of the murderers, but I have requested information concerning the rest of the victims and will Post it when received.

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: April 23, 1998. Texas. Joseph Cannon. It took two attempts to complete the execution of Joseph Cannon. The first time, a vein in his arm collapsed and the needle popped out. Cannon had laid back and closed his eyes when he realized what had happened. "It's come undone" he told witnesses. Officials pulled a curtain to block witnesses from seeing what was happening and fifteen minutes later the second attempt began. Joseph Cannon was sentenced to be executed in Texas for the murder of Anne Walsh in 1977. A frequent juvenile violator and runaway from Houston, Cannon was facing jail time for a burglary unless he could find a stable living environment. Anne Walsh, an attorney whose brother had represented Cannon, was convinced by her brother to take the boy in. According to his confession, Cannon had been drinking and taking drugs on Sept. 30, 1977, when Mrs. Walsh came home for lunch. He shot her at least 6 times as she begged for her life, tried to rape her, then stole her daughter's car. July 18, 1996. Indiana. Tommie Smith. Smith was not pronounced dead until an hour and 20 minutes after the execution team began to administer the lethal combination of intravenous drugs. Prison officials said the team could not find a vein in Smith's arm and had to insert an angio-catheter into his heart, a procedure that took 35 minutes. According to authorities, Smith remained conscious during that procedure July 8, 1999. Florida. Allen Lee Davis. When hit with the 2,300 volts, blood poured from Davis' mouth. The blood poured onto the collar of his white shirt, and oozed onto his chest. By the time he was pronounced dead, the stain on Davis' chest had grown to the size of a dinner plate, and seeped through buckle holes on the leather chest strap holding him to the chair. Davis was the first inmate to be executed in Florida's new electric chair. Allen Lee Davis attacked Nancy Weiler, 37, who at the time was three months pregnant with the family's third child. Davis bludgeoned Mrs. Weiler--who was the corresponding secretary of the PTA at her children's school--so severely that she was barely recognizable when police found her body. Davis brutalized Mrs. Weiler with such force that the trigger guard on the gun with which he was beating her broke, as did the wooden grips and metal frame of its handle. Davis tied up the Weiler's 10-year-old daughter, Kristy--a 5th-grade student who hoped to become a nuclear engineer someday--and shot her in the face, killing her. The Weilers' other child -- 5-year-old Kathy -- tried to run from Davis. He shot her in the back, and then beat her, crushing her skull. There was quite a bit of blood in the Weiler home after Davis had killed the mother and her two children. Considerably more blood than inadvertently appeared on Davis' shirt during the execution. May 7, 1992. Texas. Justin Lee May. May had an unusually violent reaction to the lethal drugs. According to Robert Wernsman, a reporter for the Item (Huntsville), May "gasped, coughed and reared against his heavy leather restraints, coughing once again before his body froze. . ." Associated Press reporter Michael Graczyk wrote, " He went into coughing spasms, groaned and gasped, lifted his head from the death chamber gurney and would have arched his back if he had not been belted down. After he stopped breathing his eyes and mouth remained open." May 4, 1990. Florida. Jesse Joseph Tafero. When the state replaced a "natural" sponge with a synthetic sponge in the headpiece of the execution apparatus, six-inch flames erupted, and three jolts of power were required to stop Tafero's breathing. Support for the state's faulty sponge theory was generated by sticking a part of it into a "common household toaster" and noting that it smoldered and caught fire. Extensive investigation by the office of the Capital Collateral Investigator in Tallahassee questioned this theory as other states have used synthetic sponges with no problems Many states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than neighboring non-death penalty states. The murder rate in the U.S. is six times that of England, which does not have the death penalty, even though the rates of other crimes are largely similar. Some studies actually show a brutalization effect of the death penalty, including a slight rise in the murder rate immediately following an execution March 25, 1997. Florida. Pedro Medina. With the first jolt of electricity, blue and orange flames sparked from the mask covering Medina's face. Flames up to a foot long shot out from the right side of Medina's head for 6 - 10 seconds. The execution chamber clouded with smoke, and the smell of burnt flesh filled the witness room The Baldus study, recognized by the Supreme Court in McCleskey v. Kemp (1987), looking at Georgia murder cases in the 1970's, found that the death penalty was assessed in 22% of cases involving black defendants and white victims, 8% of cases involving white defendants and white victims, 1% of cases involving black defendants and black victims, and 3% of cases involving white defendants and black victims. Nevertheless, the Court concluded that racial disparities in sentencing "are an inevitable part of our criminal justice system."[/QB]

Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel: Less death is a good thing, right?

Not necessarily. And keeping the dregs of humanity alive as a drain on the rescources of a community takes away from those who are in need and have not done anything wrong. Every dollar spent on keeping a multiple murder/rapist/kidnaper alive in jail is a dollar that is not educating the children, feeding the poor or providing a better environment for those who choose not to work toward the destruction of that society.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Azred: Second offense results in exile to some small island in the South Pacific.

Sounds great. I know just the place too.... well, it's not a small island. It's pretty big actually. But it's miles from anywhere, and would be the perfect prison.

The only problem is, what if they reproduce, start loving the beaches and get really good at sports?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Arnabas: Hi there, Yorick Not to get bitchy, but just to play devil's advocate: Isn't chemical castration more of a human rights violation than simply locking them up? So according to some, there is really nothing that we are allowed to do to criminals to punish them if we want to call ourselves a just society

It's reversible I believe.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: [qb] Ted Bundy - by his own admission - killed over 100 people. He had served time in prison for some of these murders, but when he got out, he murdered more people.

Then why was he released?
[/QUOTE]IIRC he was not charged with murder. It was either attempted murder or assault. Also, I can't remember if he was released or if he escaped.

The reason he was able to terrorize young women for sooo long is because, in addition to being highly charismatic, he was extremely intelligent.

He committed his murders in several different states, and in different counties within the same state. This prevented police from realizing that one person was responsible for all the deaths. Each incident appeared to be isolated.

Remember, this was back in the 1970's. Desktop computers were unheard of at that time, so it was logistically impossible for authorities from different jurisdictions to share information.

Ted Bundy was - in part - responsible for the federal gov't providing funds to establish the various National Databases we take for granted today.

Also, the figure of "over 100 victims" may or may not be true. Ted Bundy never told exaclty HOW many murders he committed. But he did tell the Florida police that the figure was in the TRIPLE digits. How much of that is fact and how much of that is bravado is unknown.

It IS known that he killed at least several dozen. Those are just the victims that were found.

One more thought on this subject. There is NO such thing as Life Without Parole. Thirty to forty years down the road, the sensationalism of the crimes will be forgotten; emotions will not be nearly as high, and the murderer WILL eventually stand a decent chance of getting out of jail.

I saw a show detailing the 1920's case of Loeb/Leopold. These two wealthy teenagers went cruising around Chicago one afternoon for the sole purpose of finding a young child to kill - just for the fun of it.

It was considered the Crime of the Century at the time. They both received life sentences for the crime and one of them (Loeb?) died while in prison. The other, however, survived and was eventually released over 30 years later.

AND, there is ALWAYS the possibility of escape.

[Sazerac]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Azred: Second offense results in exile to some small island in the South Pacific.

Sounds great. I know just the place too.... well, it's not a small island. It's pretty big actually. But it's miles from anywhere, and would be the perfect prison.

The only problem is, what if they reproduce, start loving the beaches and get really good at sports?[/QUOTE]Yorick: ROTFLMFAO!!!!! [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img]

Not to mention hanging out at billabongs!

-Saz

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Arnabas: I might have to leave this thread for a while... It is so frustrating to me that people care more about the rights of criminals than the people they rape, torture and murder. "Mr. Smith, you have killed 20 people. This court sentences you to a long hug to raise your self esteem, because it is our own fault that you became homicidal. The victims and their families should be ashamed of what they did to you..." Yes, in a perfect society, we could rehabilitate everyone and there would be no need for capital punishment. But are we living in a perfect society?

If you think I follow that line of thinking you are sorely mistaken. In fact, I doubt anyone here thinks that way.

I, like most other people, believe in rehab when possible. In some cases it's very clear that it works, in some cases it's very clear that it doesn't work. When it doesn't work, it's time for the punishment.

I personally don't think murderers should get any benefits - in fact, I think solitary confinement for life is a fantastic idea for these kinds of people. And if you think that I wanted the b*stard who murdered my wife to have a long hug....

[Alexander]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Alexander: That's nice, but you're not likely to be beaten or raped on an aircraft carrier. Why don't you actually go spend a few days in a prison and then you can tell us about the blissful paradise it is.

Umm I wouldnt bet on that...there are several people who manage to ....not get home each year on carriers. Doesnt make the news a lot, but sailors do get raped (men and women) they get beaten robbed and abused....all the things that happen in a small town happen in the small town called an aircraft carrier.

I don't need to spend a few days in prison, the one I toured was quite enough, and the two days in the brig I spen while in the Navy was enough...but on the whole it could have been worse...[/QUOTE]Stop being pedantic - you obviously see my point. I'm certain there are a lot fewer beatings on aircraft carriers than in prisons - the same is probably true with cases of rape. So to compare the military to prison is laughable.

[Azred]

Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel: Less death is a good thing, right?

I think most sane people would agree with that sentiment. Since I am sane, I agree. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Yorick: Sounds great. I know just the place too.... well, it's not a small island. It's pretty big actually. But it's miles from anywhere, and would be the perfect prison. The only problem is, what if they reproduce, start loving the beaches and get really good at sports?

Then I'll bring the drinks, you bring the pizza, and we'll meet them on the beach. [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]