Israel VS. Lebanon

[Morgeruat]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060713/...israel_lebanon

Essentially Lebanon refuses to police it's borders and allows hezbollah free reign to conduct their war with Israel, refusing any and all diplomatic measures to reign them in (no surprise there), and following the capture of two Israeli soldiers near the norther border it seems that Israel has declared an all out war on hezbollah and the measures it uses to resupply it's arms; roads, ports, airports, etc. The biggest offensive from Israel against Lebanon (according to the article) in 24 years.


On the other side you have the civilian casualties (considering that hamas, hezbollah, al aqsa, plo et al consider Israeli civilians to be fair game I consider turn about to be more than fair play) unfortunate, but it happens in war, especially a war for survival against myriad enemies who would see you driven into the sea before considering stopping.

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: [QB] http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060713/...israel_lebanon Essentially Lebanon refuses to police it's borders and allows hezbollah free reign to conduct their war with Israel, refusing any and all diplomatic measures to reign them in (no surprise there), and following the capture of two Israeli soldiers near the norther border it seems that Israel has declared an all out war on hezbollah and the measures it uses to resupply it's arms; roads, ports, airports, etc. The biggest offensive from Israel against Lebanon (according to the article) in 24 years.

For what its worth, I can understand and support an Israeli strike into Lebanon in response to the rocket attacks from Hezbollah.

I do however think that bombing the international airport and cutting Beirut off from the rest of the country is going a bit far. Implying that there is a steady stream of arms and equipment flowing through from Iran/Syria to Hezbollah through the airport is a little disingenuous.

A little more understanding with regards to the political situation in Lebanon from Israel might also be welcome (and it was rather amusing to see Bush in that press conference rather worried that his pet democracy in the Middle-East could be destabilised):

1. The Lebanese government does not have the manpower to forcibly disarm Hamas. I will admit that they publicly say they won't (preferring a diplomatic solution) but that's more face-saving than anything else.

2. Hezbollah has only one MP in the cabinet, so claiming that Hezbollah=Lebanese government is a gross oversimplification by Israel. I, for one, believe the government's protestations of ignorence and it should also be noted that they've called for the release of the captured soldiers.


As for civilian casualties, we can all hope that it doesn't escalate in yet another repeat of innocent bloodshed - Lebanon has seen quite enough of that over the years.

I do hope that the events of the past few weeks are part of a trend back towards military targets by extremist groups - both Hamas and Hezbollah appear to have taken soldiers prisoner to use as a bargaining tool for the release of their own people. I find this a welcome change from the suicide bombing of civilians.

It will be interesting to see how this all pans out. Israel has now bombed some Lebanese army bases which would seem to indicate they want to escalate the conflict beyond merely one with Hezbollah. Is this Olmert earning his 'hardliner' credentials?

Ah well, we can all just hope the killing stops soon - it seems unlikely the international community is going to get involved in any meaningful way. Black Baron, if you've been sent out there, I hope you stay safe.

[ 07-13-2006, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[Timber Loftis]

I say it's time we just get 'er done. Years of diking around in Iraq ain't getting us nowhere. Muslims vs. Christians and Jews, worldwide throwdown, right now.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: Black Baron, if you've been sent out there, I hope you stay safe.

I think we can all agree with that sentiment.

[Knightscape]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: For what its worth, I can understand and support an Israeli strike into Lebanon in response to the rocket attacks from Hezbollah. I do however think that bombing the international airport and cutting Beirut off from the rest of the country is going a bit far. Implying that there is a steady stream of arms and equipment flowing through from Iran/Syria to Hezbollah through the airport is a little disingenuous.

I believe that a large part of the reasoning behind the isolation of Lebanon is to insure the soldiers are not shipped to Iran or Syria. A situation that would only escalate the conflict.

A little more understanding with regards to the political situation in Lebanon from Israel might also be welcome (and it was rather amusing to see Bush in that press conference rather worried that his pet democracy in the Middle-East could be destabilised): 1. The Lebanese government does not have the manpower to forcibly disarm Hamas. I will admit that they publicly say they won't (preferring a diplomatic solution) but that's more face-saving than anything else.

Perhaps they don't have the manpower to totally disarm Hezbollah but they could at least make an effort to stop the rocket attacks and return the Israeli soldiers.

2. Hezbollah has only one MP in the cabinet, so claiming that Hezbollah=Lebanese government is a gross oversimplification by Israel. I, for one, believe the government's protestations of ignorence and it should also be noted that they've called for the release of the captured soldiers.

I would say that just because the official Lebanese government has a policy of looking the other way while acts of war are committed by Lebanese citizens, does not diminish the official Lebanese government responsibility for the acts of war.

As for civilian casualties, we can all hope that it doesn't escalate in yet another repeat of innocent bloodshed - Lebanon has seen quite enough of that over the years. I do hope that the events of the past few weeks are part of a trend back towards military targets by extremist groups - both Hamas and Hezbollah appear to have taken soldiers prisoner to use as a bargaining tool for the release of their own people. I find this a welcome change from the suicide bombing of civilians.

Changing from suicide bombings of civilians to random rocket attacks on civilians does not seem to be a way to de-escalate the situation.

It will be interesting to see how this all pans out. Israel has now bombed some Lebanese army bases which would seem to indicate they want to escalate the conflict beyond merely one with Hezbollah. Is this Olmert earning his 'hardliner' credentials?

More likely it is Israel putting pressure on the government of Lebanon to insure a safe return of it's soldiers.

Ah well, we can all just hope the killing stops soon - it seems unlikely the international community is going to get involved in any meaningful way. Black Baron, if you've been sent out there, I hope you stay safe.

[Aragorn1]

Just can see that Israeli actions are appropriate to acheive desired response, irrespective of whether they are proportionate. Would seem to be the Govt.'s effort to appear 'tough' has, as so often happens in such situations, wherever they occur, has had too much of an influence on policy.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060713/...israel_lebanon Essentially Lebanon refuses to police it's borders and allows hezbollah free reign to conduct their war with Israel, refusing any and all diplomatic measures to reign them in (no surprise there), and following the capture of two Israeli soldiers near the norther border it seems that Israel has declared an all out war on hezbollah and the measures it uses to resupply it's arms; roads, ports, airports, etc.

LOL, well it's a bit hard to rein them in considering they have two seats in the Parliament and are part of the Lebanese government. Kind of like asking the Palestinians to rein in Hamas.

I just hope this doesn't lead to a catastrophic chain of events which conflagrates into an all-out Mideast war.

[Morgeruat]

They have two seats in the parliament, correct, but the majority of Lebanese citizens do not approve of having what amounts to Syrian militia running parts of their country, of course since their goal is to destroy "teh e-ville JOOSE" they receive the benefit of international support (at least among the muslim world and the UN)

Then again, as you said, there are 2 parliament members that are Hezbollah, which makes it an act of war by a recognized party with governing influence, giving Israel the benefit of national self defense.

[shamrock_uk]

@Knightscape - by your (and Israel's) logic, Britain should have declared war against Ireland at the height of the IRA campaign - I'm fairly sure there were some Irish MPs involved.

This kind of behaviour just wouldn't be acceptable anywhere outside of the Middle-East.


@Morg - Don't forget that Hizbollah did rustle up (belatedly!) a couple of hundred thousand demonstrators in its support last year - they're certainly not without support. We also shouldn't forget the main reason for that support - they were the group that kicked the occupying Israeli forces out of Lebanon.

IIRC, the Israeli occupation of Lebanon was one of the (or the major?) reason(s) for the founding of Hezbollah.

I would surmise that the international community is supportive of Lebanon for both this reason (as we like to believe that you reap what you sow) and the fact that we don't like bullies. Israel is throwing a military temper tantrum which is killing innocent civilians at a fair rate (over 100 now?) There is no military justification for striking all over the country away from Hezbollah strongholds.

[ZFR]

Just a small correction

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9155/

After the 2005 elections, Hezbollah won eight new seats, giving the group twenty-three seats in the 128-member Lebanese Parliament. In addition, Hezbollah has two ministers in the government, and a third is endorsed by the group.