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View Poll Results: Your favourite gaming system(Roleplaying, not console/PC, etc.)
2nd edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 7 15.56%
3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons 6 13.33%
1st edition Dungeons and Dragons 16 35.56%
GURPS 2 4.44%
RIFTS 3 6.67%
Unisystem(All Flesh Must Be Eaten, etc.) 7 15.56%
Alternity 1 2.22%
Freeform(Or some sort of diceless) 2 4.44%
Other(Please enlighten us as to your inferior choice) 1 2.22%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-05-2007, 05:49 PM   #11
Felix The Assassin
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1, One, uno, dagger stab and your D-O-N-E! Dagger of slaying, +Never miss, + 300 poison, +300 Ice, +300 Fire, + vorpal Sharpness. Did I mention, Never Misses?
NEXT!
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:14 PM   #12
Luvian
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Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleXVI:
Well, here's the thing, a 20th-level fighter is barely even mortal any longer, that's even the way they describe it. Most people in society are just 0th level, a few are first level, it'd take, starting at 1st level, usually years of gaming to get to even 10th level unless your DM is absurdly free with XP. A 20th-level character is a demi-God. The Chosen of most Gods are 20th level, even the avatars of some weaker Gods are.

And it would be a bit ridiculous if such creatures couldn't survive a bit more than a dagger to the gut.

The suggestion in all of the rulebooks is that around level 9, the character is so mighty that standard fights really just don't hold any purpose, and he should retire to control a fortress or some such. Just become a wealthy lord of some sort.
Yes but there's no reason for your character becoming superhuman just because he's been fighting with a sword for a long time. They just messed up their system and are trying to find excuses and justifications around it.

[ 01-05-2007, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:21 PM   #13
PurpleXVI
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He's not just been "fighting with a sword for a long time." A fighter, which you seem to pick as your example, has likely waded through rivers of dragon blood, been exposed to more magic than most artifacts, been surrounded by hundreds of dying enemies, seen sights that few mortals have and perhaps even visited far planes of existence where he was surrounded by oceans of exotic energy.

Just imagine how long it's taken, no one could live for that long without attaining some sort of deeper understanding of the world. He's been travelling, experiencing things, for maybe a hundred years, to get that far. He's done more than just "fighting with a sword." It's a heroic fantasy game.
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:27 PM   #14
Luvian
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What if he was a human gladiator that got to level 20 in the arena by fighting only other human gladiator of incrementing skill?
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:34 PM   #15
ZFR
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Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleXVI:
Well, here's the thing, a 20th-level fighter is barely even mortal any longer, that's even the way they describe it. Most people in society are just 0th level, a few are first level, it'd take, starting at 1st level, usually years of gaming to get to even 10th level unless your DM is absurdly free with XP. A 20th-level character is a demi-God. The Chosen of most Gods are 20th level, even the avatars of some weaker Gods are.
You're going beside the piont. Luvian's point is that the whole HP system is unrealistic. Forget level 20. A level 2 fighter can have 20HP (not to mention constitution). There isn't a single weapon that can do that much damage even with STR bonus, and not even with a critical hit. Unless it's some super +x damage weapon or a backstab.
This actually means that even when a 2 level fighter (wearing no armor, carrying no shiled - AC is irrelevent here; we are talking about hits) is *hit* with a sword he's not going to get killed.
Moreover it's going in a linear relation, a level 5 fighter can survive 5 times as much of same type of hits as level 1 fighter? Why so? A hit with a sword should be able to kill you no matter what abilities you have (unless you're indeed some sort of demigod)

Quote:
Originally posted by Luvian:
They just messed up their system and are trying to find excuses and justifications around it.
I completely agree with you it is unrealistic, but I disagree it's messed up.

Heck, the whole idea of levelling up is unrealistic. Your skills remain same and then suddenly after crossing some xp point (even though it could be for killing a rat), you increase in skills, and then it's again waiting till you cross another magic point.

My point is, those rulessets are not supposed to be realistic. Rather they are supposed to create a set of rules that allow it's users to RP a game. They mimic real life, but are not supposed to be realistic.
Just like chess for example. One could say that chess is a stupid game because the rules of the movement of pieces is unrealistic. Chess is supposed only to mimic a battle with the aim of killing the opposing side's leader, and it rules are there to make a game possible.
AD&D's rules are much more complex than chess's, but it's just that: rules to make game-play possible.
That's not saying that all rules are good. Some are indeed stupid. But HP has been there since the dawn of computer games, and is actually doing its job nicely in many occasions. I definately wouldn't call a system using HP as messed up.

EDIT:
what, I write a reply to a post and already 4 new ones sprang up.

[ 01-05-2007, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: ZFR ]
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:34 PM   #16
PurpleXVI
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Well, that would just not be possible at all before he died of old age. Humans and demi-humans, even of high level, just aren't worth much XP because they don't have any crazy abilities or resistances.
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:51 PM   #17
uss
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Luvian, by the game's mechanics, yeah, that's just one sword thrusting demigod. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But I believe that most DMs would make that gladiator go through all kinds of crap. Make him endure magic (illusions and whatnot), perhaps starvation, make him have a wide array of enemies. Make him have tough decisions in terms of both roleplay and powerplay. Perhaps give him some love interest? Basically, there's lots of stuff you could do to make him feel more worthy of his prowess.

Of course, having a lover and starving and such won't really get you closer to being a demigod but if they make the character surpass new challenges, they do in many RP-games. And personally I think that's kewl.

Ah, I'd love to play some D&D.
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:54 PM   #18
Luvian
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ZFR. Shadowrun, Vampire and other pen and paper games use other systems beside hp that work just as well if not better. Just because hp has been here for a long time doesn't necessarily make it a good system. (Those games also are not level but skill based, too.)

The problem with hp is that it remove most challenges and in my opinion rob you of possible accomplishments. What's the point of having legendary monsters like Dragons, Demons and such if your mortal character can physically get as powerful as them? The hit point system remove all challenge. The only way a level 20 character can die is by getting hit a ridiculous number of times. Now, we've had legends of powerful warriors, but a level 20 fighter could literally go on a battlefield that has 1000 soldiers and kill them all, walk up to the king, kill him, then he could jump off the castle's tower to get away. It's not like a mere 30 foot fall can hurt him...

I like a system where your character can get powerful and more skilled than the others around him, but there should always be the risk of getting killed. Just because you're the best swordsman or gunner around, doesn't mean the worse one couldn't get lucky and kill you. Even the best fighter should be scared when faced by 4-5 guys, no matter how skilled they are, and feel proud of having won. Epic creatures like Dragons and Demons should always be a challenge and most likely take multiple allies to defeat, there's a big problem when you can casually kill them with your right hand tied behind your back.

[ 01-05-2007, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]
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Old 01-05-2007, 07:00 PM   #19
PurpleXVI
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Yeah, but what do you think it takes for a character to get as mighty as a dragon or a demon? Years and years of play unless he starts at that level. That's a lot of accomplishment required to get there, no offense, but you seem to be ignoring that important point.

Another thing is that if you use the Player's Options rules, then, say, a mighty fighter could get taken down by some lucky Critical Hits.

Epic creatures ARE a challenge and always require multiple allies to defeat unless you've been playing the game for years! I mean, seriously, you cannot IGNORE THAT FACT. For 99.9999999% of all players, they're like that, maybe a few, one or two, adventurers, can take them on by themselves, after playing for years, but to all but them, that's just not that way.

And yes, there is a big problem if a DM lets his players become that powerful, but that doesn't mean there's a problem with the system for having rules for players who are that powerful.

As for skill-based games, sure, they're fun, but they're not heroic games, so you really can't compare them at all. I'm not saying that they are bad, or that D&D is good, they're just two completely different things. If you enjoy skill-based realistic games, and you complain about D&D, then it's like a guy who likes strategy games complaining that an FPS isn't to his tastes.
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Old 01-05-2007, 07:12 PM   #20
Luvian
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Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleXVI:
Yeah, but what do you think it takes for a character to get as mighty as a dragon or a demon? Years and years of play unless he starts at that level. That's a lot of accomplishment required to get there, no offense, but you seem to be ignoring that important point.

Another thing is that if you use the Player's Options rules, then, say, a mighty fighter could get taken down by some lucky Critical Hits.

Epic creatures ARE a challenge and always require multiple allies to defeat unless you've been playing the game for years! I mean, seriously, you cannot IGNORE THAT FACT. For 99.9999999% of all players, they're like that, maybe a few, one or two, adventurers, can take them on by themselves, after playing for years, but to all but them, that's just not that way.

And yes, there is a big problem if a DM lets his players become that powerful, but that doesn't mean there's a problem with the system for having rules for players who are that powerful.
I've DMed a campaign where the players got to level 20. It's not that hard, since the xp ramp up with their levels. The leveling rate is pretty constant. But that's not what's important. Like ZFR said, it doesn't have to be a level 20 character, I only used that example because it was more dramatic. Like he said, it's impossible for a level 2-3 fighter to get kill by a sword strike or an arrow.
Quote:

As for skill-based games, sure, they're fun, but they're not heroic games, so you really can't compare them at all. I'm not saying that they are bad, or that D&D is good, they're just two completely different things. If you enjoy skill-based realistic games, and you complain about D&D, then it's like a guy who likes strategy games complaining that an FPS isn't to his tastes.

Are you saying Vampire the Masquerade is not heroic? You can play vampires that could lift a school bus, move so fast you can barely see them, can shapeshift etc. Then there's the werewolf that are even stronger than that. They can do much more damage than any D&D fighter could ever do. Yet as powerfull as they are, they don't use a hp system. The most powerful vampire could get killed by the weakest one. Sure, he'd have to be really unlucky, since he's stronger, faster, more skilled, got more powers etc, but it can still happen.

Edit: I'm not saying I want a game where you get killed as soon as you get hit, but I like it way better when there is always an element of risk. You should never, under any circumstances, be impossible to kill.

[ 01-05-2007, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]
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