Whats the point?

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
Some of you may know that I am heavily involved in Left Wing groups. I campaign for what I beleive in and I try and persuade other people. I will go to meetings and speak, I will hand out leaflets, I will put up posters and I will defend what I beleive in to anyone who cares to listen.

But I am starting to wonder why. Me and some friends recently tried to get Bacardi boycotted from the student union bars here at the LSE. We failed hopelessly, which we expected. That wasn't the annoying thing. What was annoying is that some guys tried to rub our noses in it by tabling a motion titled "There's Latin Spirit in Every One!" which would give £500 to the bar in order to give free Bacardi to people next Wednesday. It came very close to passing - the only reason it didn't was because it is actually illegal for our union to do that so it had to be withdrawn.

Thy argued in favour of it by saying "We are at University to have a good time. We want to get drunk and stick two fingers up to all those people who think its fun to stand around handing out leaflets.". This reeeeeeeeally depressed me. I do not do it for fun, I do it because it might effect something. It might make someones life better. We can all have a good time at Uni because we live in the UK and have a bit of money. Some people aren't as lucky and it looks like I am the only one who cares. I am studying at the London School of Economic and Political Science and no one gives a damn about politics anymore. Caring about other people has become so passe it is just ridiculous.

I tried to go and get absolutely trollied at the Union bar last night to take my mind off it but I couldn't get in - the irony of it. I ended up in Leicester Square at 1 am worryingly sober and still extremly depressed.

I live my life on the basis that it can help other people. Why am I bothering if no one wants to listen.

This is one of the things that contributed to me rising to the bait when posts in the war forum pissed me off. Normally I try and argue with them but just recently, like the topic says, I have been thinking "Whats the point".

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I in no way endorse anyone being rude about things, but (you knew there would be one right?) My take on this is, that here in the US the "lefty" types who wish to "protect people from them selves" are rather annoying in how they go about things...The only people I ever witness getting "hasseled" for passing out leafletts and stuff are those who make pests of them selves and not taking hints that a person is not interested. The reality of the world is that Idealists on either the extreme right or extreme left are doomed to failure and disappointment....because they can't accpet reality and the fact that they are in fact a very minor segment of society at large and thus do not merrit the same focus of concern that the majority of society receives. Not a pleasent fact, but I have noticed that children start out as Idealists, go to school and become radicles then graduate and experience REAL world life realize they were going about things wrong and then learn how to function in society and be effective. Now Im not saying their ideal were wrong...just their methods. If people learn to work effectively within the established framework of society they have a much greater chance of effecting change...if they do not learn this tactic then they doom themselves to being labeled "fruitcakes, nutcases and fanatics". If you do not care for the results you gain from your efforts then learn how to alter your methods to become effective. It can be done without compromising your values. In all fairness if someones view is not the will of the majority then it has no place being implemented. Unless you desire a society to impose whatever whimsical desire trhat comes up, on you. You can try to educate others but you do not have the right to become a nuisance to them to get them to see your point.


Just a comment from the "right" (the political right) side of the road. NO I am NOT a republican...Im a Libertarian with Republican tendancies.

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Originally posted by Chewbacca:

In my case the 10,000,000+ people who have been incarcerated in the

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I dispute your figures here, in the last 40 years I am quite certain that 5% of the US population has NOT in fact been prosecuted for illegal drug use. There may have been 10,000,000 counts brought against criminals, but you can have multiple counts of crimes in one single instance. Right now the total population of the USA is less than 300,000,000 40 years ago it was less than 200,000,000 we didnt hit the 200,000,000 mark untill I was a teenager in the 70's

A suggestion to people who want to promote "unpopular" or radical new ideologies into society...try not to exagerate your numbers or you will end up looking foolish ...just like the people in the 70's who told us that we would run out of Oil by 1990 and that the rainforest would be totally obliterated by 1999. By exagerating and useing faulty modeling to push your point you just alienate anyone who might be thinking of supporting you when they find out you lied, prevaricated or just plain made things up...Im not saying you actually lied..Im just saying you didnt check your figures.

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


I read a great book called Imagining America in the 21st century (or something like that), which was very visionary indeed. It left me with a feeling of hope for the future, rather than fear and dread at what is happening.

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When I was groing up in the 70's I read many books, and watched many movies that told us how the future would be in the USA in the year 2000...everything from Jetson like rocket cars to Meat that cost $2000 a pound (soylent green anyone) There was supposed to be no oil or rain forest by now, the price of fresh fruit would make oranges more valuable than gold. I saw the same kinds of prediction in the 80's all proved hopelssly inacurate and not because "The activists" warned us just in time to avoid the problem, in fact the activists were spectacularly inneffective in promoting major changes in how life was conducted (with a few exceptions notably the ban on whaling and more efficient cars) I do not know why the doom and gloomers never seem to get it right, I suspect that it has to do with useing static modeling and projections instead of dynamic models which is how the world really works.

Im all for people trying to make things more efficient and "earth friendly" just please please please do not be obnoxious while tying to promote your ideals. Don't try to shove it in peoples faces that just makes people angry.


The one thing you said earlier that I thought was totally outrageous Silverlady is that students NEED to drink so they don't get depressed by the doom they face...that is total BS. Students Drink to excess because they for themost part don't know how to handle the first bit of freedom they have attained iun their life...they are finaly free of adult supervision and go bananaannaannananananas (never know how many anana's in that word) Students in universities have partied since the days of Aristotle..as a matter of fact I thin it was Aristotle or Socratese (one of those old dead dudes) that wrote a remarkable treatise on the follies of youth....an english teach had it rewritten with modern words....and gave it to us...it sounded just like our parents lamenting about todays youth....things really havent changed much in the realms of being human...just the magnatude.

...I really hope I misunderstood your comments about why students drink SC....

[Barry the Sprout]

Thanks guys.

MagiK, some interesting points. The thing about pestering people to read a leaflet is that a lot of people don't want to be confronted with that kind of informatin. For example people don't want to know that the shoes they are wearing are made in appalling conditions. Or that the by buying a particular drink they are supporting terrorism.

I don't mind being unpopular with people I have never met because it might make someone take a leaflet and think about it. I agree that it gets annoying at times but how annoying do you think it is for us when people just ignore us.

To tell you the truth the best thing to say is "Not interested" and carry on walking. Then people won't bother you. If you ignore them then they will just keep trying. DEFINATELY don't take the leaflet and then throw it on the floor when you are around the corner. That is always very annoying as they don't make themselves. By nature of being a left wing pressure group we have no cash!

[Silver Cheetah]

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Originally posted by MagiK:


The one thing you said earlier that I thought was totally outrageous Silverlady is that students NEED to drink so they don't get depressed by the doom they face...that is total BS. Students Drink to excess because they for themost part don't know how to handle the first bit of freedom they have attained iun their life...they are finaly free of adult supervision and go bananaannaannananananas (never know how many anana's in that word) Students in universities have partied since the days of Aristotle..as a matter of fact I thin it was Aristotle or Socratese (one of those old dead dudes) that wrote a remarkable treatise on the follies of youth....an english teach had it rewritten with modern words....and gave it to us...it sounded just like our parents lamenting about todays youth....things really havent changed much in the realms of being human...just the magnatude.

...I really hope I misunderstood your comments about why students drink SC....

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MagiK man, before I answer your post, could you possibly find the bit where I supposedly gave that reason for students drinking, and cut and paste it in? I certainly don't remember saying it, and I can't find it at all.

Thanks!

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
Thanks guys.

MagiK, some interesting points. The thing about pestering people to read a leaflet is that a lot of people don't want to be confronted with that kind of informatin. For example people don't want to know that the shoes they are wearing are made in appalling conditions. Or that the by buying a particular drink they are supporting terrorism.

I don't mind being unpopular with people I have never met because it might make someone take a leaflet and think about it. I agree that it gets annoying at times but how annoying do you think it is for us when people just ignore us.

To tell you the truth the best thing to say is "Not interested" and carry on walking. Then people won't bother you. If you ignore them then they will just keep trying. DEFINATELY don't take the leaflet and then throw it on the floor when you are around the corner. That is always very annoying as they don't make themselves. By nature of being a left wing pressure group we have no cash!

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Sorry about you being annoyed because you are ignored, but in the USA you have the right to free speach...but you do not have the right to make anyone else listen....I would say, being Libertarian, that you have the right to say and think what you like...but you dont have the right to make people listen to you..if you want that power move to a dictatorship where you are the dictator and then you can have what you want. As for people dropping the leaflet on the floor...if you force it on someone who doesnt want it then I think you are guilty of litering and should be fined. Your point about Barcardi Rum...I visited the Bacardi plants in San Juan Peurto Rico back in 82 or 83 when I was living in Sabana Seca, there was no slavelabor and no one was forced to work there against their will. The Puerto Rican terrorists were annoying, especially when they attacked and killed several of my friends. I don't believe that Bacardi is a major source of terrorism in the world at the moment. Im pretty sure that those people they sponsor (if any) are more interested in the Puerto Rican seperation from the USA....Is Bacardi a major concern in other nations?

I didn't post this to sound mean....just to get accross the idea, that we can't always have what we want...might as well learn how to deal with it constructively.... Sorry if it was rude sounding.

[Silver Cheetah]

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Originally posted by MagiK:


Sorry about you being annoyed because you are ignored, but in the USA you have the right to free speach...but you do not have the right to make anyone else listen....I would say, being Libertarian, that you have the right to say and think what you like...but you dont have the right to make people listen to you..if you want that power move to a dictatorship where you are the dictator and then you can have what you want. As for people dropping the leaflet on the floor...if you force it on someone who doesnt want it then I think you are guilty of litering and should be fined. Your point about Barcardi Rum...I visited the Bacardi plants in San Juan Peurto Rico back in 82 or 83 when I was living in Sabana Seca, there was no slavelabor and no one was forced to work there against their will. The Puerto Rican terrorists were annoying, especially when they attacked and killed several of my friends. I don't believe that Bacardi is a major source of terrorism in the world at the moment. Im pretty sure that those people they sponsor (if any) are more interested in the Puerto Rican seperation from the USA....Is Bacardi a major concern in other nations?

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Totally agree with MagiK on this one, I have to say (MagiK faints in total shock ) none of us have the *right* to *make* anyone do anything. If people don't want to take a leaflet, so be it! No worries.

I never think leaflets are a particularly good way of getting a message across, myself, though they do serve a purpose. Things like Reclaim the Streets parties and the Greenpeace 'theatre' are much more fun, and I think get a message across in a way that is far more acceptable.

The World Development Movement, for example, did a GATS float that had 'fat cats' in suits walking along behind it, lots of fat cats - I thought that was a brilliant idea! There were also lots of other costumes. Bringing creativity into the job of 'bearing witness' is a big help.

I'll tell you what else REALLY works too - a huge smile! I raised more money in one hour for Greenpeace than anyone in England ever has (so I was told) just by standing on one leg and laughting my head off. People were queueing to put money in my tin, I'm not kidding!

And last week, I was part of the boycott Esso national day. I was giving leaflets to people in cars, which is always hard cos they can wind the window up and keep it up, but my antics were so funny, smiles and a bit of pantomiming, that nearly everyone wanted to join in. A group of young kids came to ask me what the Esso campaign was about - they were really attracted to the idea of doing something worthwhile and having fun at the same time!

So, yes, a change in approach. Harder on the forum - maybe on the forum I could decorate my 'green pleas' posts with pretty colours and pics? Have to think about it.... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Here ya go Silver Kitty [img]smile.gif[/img] This is the quote that made me think that you believed that students drink to avoid the horrors of their world.

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
Barry, I'm really sorry you feel so awful. I know what you're going through - I sometimes get phases when I feel like that.

Don't get TOO angry at the students. A lot of people, quite understandably, can't handle the mess that is today's world. !

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This is another quote I think requires a bit of comment.

[All these Western problems you describe we have created for ourselves - they are inherent in the way that capitalism works, as you know well. ]

I would argue the problems that are endemic to westerners such as depression and bulemia and such is NOT due to capitalism but due more to people who just cannot deal with reality and are too mentaly weak to accept life as it is. Peculiar to western societies is a level of material wealth that allows such professions as "therapists"
and "counselors" that seem to exist for no other reason than to make people believe that they are "VICTIMS" of society/conditions/or anything else all in the name of avoiding having to take responsibility for their own problems and lives. This trend has accelerated in the last 25 years, to heights never seen before. No one is responsible, so you have the right to play victim. Every single human being on earth has problems, just some of those people choose not to face them but turn away and blame others for their problems. Capitalism allows individuals to become more than they are, through effort, work ethic and intelligence (yes some people just aren't bright enough to be anything other than street sweepers) Capitalism does not cause people to become depressed, it does not make them want to throw up so they can be pretty and thin, and it most certainly does not force people to jump off buildings or in any other way commit suicide. Teenage depression has been around as long as there have been Homo Sapiens. It is cuased primarily by the changes in brain chemistry that take place during puberty (I learned that on "The Learning Channel" who says there nothing good on tv). the major difference now is one of mass communication. It is now easier for everyone to know every incident that takes place anywhere. It is unfortunate that todays teens have a higher percentage of parents who do not take the role of parenting seriously enough to help the children through this critical phase of their life.


To blame capitalism is to make yet another group "not responsible" for events around them....This stuff all has roots in poor parenting and screwed up priorities. Capitalism allows people to live more comfortably than ever before in history...so now we have to look for something else to bitch about...


Humans are the sickest of beings I have ever run accross....

Uhh and just to be provocative and generally a pain in the arse...here is a thought....


Say you successfully boycot that swoosh brand coffee maker that is assembled in some third world country by people makeing less than a western countries minimum wage (but still nearly a living wage in that country) and that big evil multi-national corporation decides to shrink its operation and lays off those poor oppressed people who then have NO source of income and no where to go to earn an income...and have no way to support themselves...then what?

[Silver Cheetah]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MagiK:
Here ya go Silver Kitty [img]smile.gif[/img] This is the quote that made me think that you believed that students drink to avoid the horrors of their world.

'Don't get TOO angry at the students. A lot of people, quite understandably, can't handle the mess that is today's world.'

MagiK hon, hope you don't mind me saying so, but you have rather missed my point here! It wasn't about students drinking at all! :giggles from Cheeth: what I was commenting on was their attitude towards Barry's Bacardi request - ie. rather than ignore him, they wanted to actively show how much they despised his efforts on behalf of the less fortunate.

THAT is what I was trying to explain and excuse, up to a point. I won't repeat my argument here because I've already made it.

This is another quote I think requires a bit of comment.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MagiK:
All these Western problems you describe we have created for ourselves - they are inherent in the way that capitalism works, as you know well.

Depression. Hmm. Do you not think you might be oversimplying the issue, here MagiK? Brain chemistry is certainly implicated in depression, however, the causes are many. Complete lack of self esteem and self worth is an extremely common reason for depression. Most acute cases have their roots in childhood trauma, as far as I am aware.

Kids often get depressed because they are ostracised for being ‘different’. In today’s world, if a kid doesn’t have the right clothes, toys etc, in other words, the right status symbols, his/her classmates can make life hell. Back to branding again. Status symbols. Worth being assessed according to what you can afford. This is shit. A human being is a human being, for god’s sake. We are all worth the same.

In our western society, unfortunately, therapists and counsellors often have to fill in for ‘people who care’. Therapists are people who won’t tell a kid that their depression and feeling of wanting to commit suicide is nothing, and they should just ‘get over it’. Have you never heard of searching for solution in cause and effect? Often, it is useful to go back into the past to find out what it is you can’t handle, and then use that knowledge as a launching pad into a more positive and happy future. What is wrong with that? Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who is desperately unhappy with themselves and their lives should just learn to live with it, rather than try to understand what has happened to them, get over it and move on? I don’t understand your antipathy towards counsellors at all. Not everyone has the tools to handle life easily, you know, often due to damage inflicted in childhood. Also due to the fact that life in the west is incredibly stressful and complex, for many. (Read almost all...) Should we just push them off the nearest cliff, so to speak?

‘Capitalism doesn’t cause people to be depressed’. Well, MagiK, I’m not suggesting it’s the one and only cause of depression, but can you not see that it might be a huge contributory factor? The bright shiny world that capitalism has built is a dream, not a reality for most of the world. A comparative few have benefited hugely, others have a pretty good life. Still others suffer horribly from the effects of capitalism.

It was the capitalist ethos that led to colonialism. To thinking it was ok to go to other parts of the world and just take resources, labour, use whatever we wanted. It was ok for native peoples to be enslaved. It was ok to mutilate workers in the congo because they didn’t produce enough, work fast enough.

It is the capitalist ethos – profits before everything else – that has led to production being moved to the third world – with the consequences of far fewer manufacturing jobs in the first, and manufacturing springing up in the third, only in frightful and disgusting conditions. All these things are condoned, because they lead to profit.

You who speak so blithely of those who aren’t intelligent enough, not smart enough to make it in this new service oriented economy. Are you seriously dismissing a large proportion of your fellow country men and women because they don’t have the skills they need to change direction? Because there aren’t enough jobs for them due to production moving overseas? Your attitude seems to be, hey, tough.

You have assumed that there are enough jobs in the service industry to absorb all those manufacturing workers who have lost their jobs. Well, there aren’t. Not only do many of these people not have the requisite skills, the jobs just aren’t there for them. DO YOU NOT THINK THAT IS ENOUGH TO MAKE ANYONE DEPRESSED? Men who lose their jobs at 40, 45 and 50. Men who will never work again. Men who do YES have a work ethos, and feel useless because there now is no place for them. You’re assuming they’re stupid and lazy, when in fact they feel as though they have been made redundant for life.

WHY is it a great thing that capitalism places so little importance on labour that half the work force consists of temps and part time workers (i.e. that includes people who work 35 – 39 hours, in the US. If you employ a worker under the set limit, even an hour under, you can get away with paying lower wages and less benefits. No benefits at all, even.) What price depression......

Capitalism ‘doesn’t make people want to throw up so they can be pretty and thin’? WHAT? MagiK, I suggest you go and do some research on this one, because that is EXACTLY why they do it. Women (and now men) are constantly bombarded with images of how ‘they should look’ ie. pretty and thin. Girls who don’t often feel totally worthless, because they don’t look ‘right’. They constantly feel ugly and socially unacceptable. Unlovable. Teenagers in particular buy into this, because they are the most vulnerable members of society to advertising messages. Its common amongst women, and is now spreading to men. Why, because toiletry product advertising has now targeted men big time. It’s a lucrative demographic. Now we have teen boys who are suicidal because they aren’t good looking, and because they’re overweight (due to the crap processed food they’ve been stuffing which has been sold to them day in day out by companies who couldn’t give a flying ■■■■ that their products have no actual food value, and actually contribute to disease and death. )

MagiK, a huge aspect of capitalism these days is about companies feeding off our insecurities to sell their product. Half the stuff we don’t need and never will, especially in the area of cosmetics and toiletry goods.

Not to wish to offend you MagiK, but I find your view of the world as presented here full of rather gaping holes, as there are just so many things that you totally dismiss, and do not take into account. If you are interested in depression, I would recommend that you go and perhaps read up on the subject, rather than relying on a short spot on the learning channel. Some people spend their whole lives studying this subject. There’s a lot to it! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Lastly, what is your point about ‘humans being the sickest of beings you have ever come across’? You are human yourself, MagiK man. Are you including yourself in that statement? Why not cut yourself and everyone else a little slack? We’re really not so bad, you know...