The American Constitution

[Yorick]

Originally posted by MagiK: As I said, why are you picking on this nation when there are places, states, and nations that are comitting truly horrible attrocities on large scale numbers of citizens.

1.Because I've chosen to live here

2.I care about this country, and have grown to love it and it's inhabitants.

3.What happens in this country affects much of the planet Earth.

America is not an island. while in Australia, I knew Bush would affect my life, but I could not vote against him. Americas policies on the environment will affect all of us. The prevalence of CV ownership in America will adversely affect the rest of the world (who don't have anywhere near the level of CV ownership). The messages portrayed in the American media, reach much of the world.

Anti-Americanism? It started as self criticism within the American media. When you ridicule your President in the media, the world sees and scorns either your President, or those that ridicule him.

I'd say this is of vital importance to America at this time.

4.Gun related deaths in America IS a horrible atrocity on a large scale..


The latest data provides us with a picture of gun deaths among children and youth in the United States in 1998. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics is the source of the data on children and youth gun violence. Calculations were made by Children's Defense Fund (CDF). CDF's figures for total firearm deaths and homicide firearm deaths exclude firearm deaths by legal (police or corrections) intervention and deaths by air rifles.■

3,761 children and teens were killed by gunfire, nearly 10 lives every day, one every two and one half hours. (3,792 without exclusions)■

2,184 were murdered by gunfire. Fifty-eight percent of young people killed by gunfire are victims of homicide. (2,215 without exclusions)■

1,241 committed suicide using a gun - more than three every day. Guns remain the most common method of suicide for children. Guns are used in two out of three youth suicides. Thirty-three percent of young people killed by guns take their own lives.■

262 died from an unintentional or accidental shooting. Seven percent of young people were victims of an accidental shooting. A study reported in the American Journal of Public Health found that 1.4 million homes with 2.6 million children living in them had firearms that were stored unlocked and loaded or unlocked and unloaded but stored with ammunition.■

74 died with intent undetermined.■

609 of the young people killed were under the age of 15; 179 were under the age of 10; and 83 were under the age of 5.■

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the rate of firearm deaths among American children under age 15 is almost 12 times higher than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.■

Gun homicide is the third leading cause of death for all young people ages 5 to14, and the leading cause of death among Black youths ages, 15 to 24.■

Between 1979 and 1998, 563 American military personnel were killed by hostile action. During that same period, 2,042 children under age 5 were killed by firearms, almost four times as many.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Total Gun Deaths As Compiled by Million Mom March. No exclusions are made in this analysis. Data is from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, National Vital Statistics Reports, Vol. 48, No. 11, July 24, 2000.

There were a total of 30,708 people killed by guns in the U.S. in 1998. Of these:
* 17,424 were gun suicides.

* 12,102 were gun homicides.

* 886 were unintentional or "accidental" shootings.

* 316 were shooting deaths of undetermined intent
---------------------------------------------------

Additional Data

* In 1997 firearm injuries were the second leading cause of death by injury for all ages and for young people aged 15-24. Motor vehicle injuries were the leading cause of death by injury for all ages and for young people 15-24 years of age. [source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the National Center for Health Statistics 1997 data]

* Most families that own guns store them loaded, unlocked, or both. [Senturia, Y.D., Christoffel, K.K. et al. Gun storage patterns in U.S. homes with children: A pediatric-based survey, Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine, Vol. 50, March 1996:265-269]

* The risk of suicide or homicide is twice as high for individuals with a family history of registered handgun purchase than for those without such a history. [source: Cummings, P. et al. The Association between the purchase of a handgun and homicide or suicide. AJPH, 87(6) June 1997:974-978]

* Suicide is nearly 5 times more likely to occur in a household with a gun than in a household without a gun. [source: Kellermann, A.L. et al. Suicide in the home in relation to gun ownership. N Engl J Med, 327(7)) Aug. 12, 1992:467-472.]

* The presence of a gun in the home triples the risk of homicide in the home. [source: Kellermann, A.L. et al. Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home. N Engl J Med 329 (15) October 7, 1993: 1084-1091

* Guns were used in approximately 7 out of 10 murders in the U.S. in 1997. Handguns were used in 53% of all murders and in 78% of all murders committed with a firearm. [source: Federal Bureau of Investigation. Crime in the United States, 1997, Washington, DC: Department of Justice. P. 20]

* One-quarter of adults in the United States own a gun and only about one in six Americans (16%) owns a hand gun. [Diaz, T. Making a killing: the business of guns in America. New York: New York Press, 1999.}

It's a problem warranting attention MagiK.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Yorick: I see chants of freedom, which are in reality cries for imprisonment. Free yourselves. Ban the gun. Allow cameras on highways and in plazas. Restrict the freedoms of those who would harm so those who are innocent may live freely.

The end result of your idea makes sense, but the freedoms everyone mentions in this thread basically come down to the freedom to make the choice for ourselves.

Throw away the "defend yourself", "it's my right", "if you outlaw guns, only the criminals will have them", or the argument "de jour", and it all comes down to one thing. Americans want to own guns, and because the overwhelming majority of US want to, the government will never ban them. Never, ever, never.

Your sentiment is, in a way, similar to thoughts about nuclear weapons. I don't think anyone will deny the world would be better off without them, and even though we've seen an increase in the number of nuclear nations, the total number of nukes has been reduced quite dramatically, but they will never be gone because someone will always successfully present the argument that we need a certain number to protect ourselves. Whether or not it's a valid argument, it will be a successful argument.

Now those are the "chants of freedom which, in reality, are cries for imprisonment". You know, Yorick, that would be an excellent song lyric . The "cries of imprisonment" line, really works against your argument as well as for it! To be free from "this", we must submit to "that". That ambiguity is another reason I think it would be a great song lyric. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I only mention the nuclear weapons issue here because it's more "in line" with your argument than the issue of gun control. The majority of Americans who own guns don't fall into the idiotic realm of the few lunatics who receive all the "press". Most are quite sensible. They don't buy guns because they are afraid not to have one, they buy them because they want one.

Personally, I don't own a gun because I sleep-walk and have a small child, both of which are big dangers to gun owners, and I don't think I would own one anyway because I don't need one. I did almost buy a WWII Luger from a former boss for the historical value, but because of the reasons already mentioned, I decided against it.

My parents bought a rifle after their house was broken into while they were away. They didn't buy it to protect their property, but because they were afraid what would happen if the robbers came while they were there. Fortunately, they didn't have to worry. The robbers hit the house again while they were away and stole the rifle...lol. Even though they bought out of fear, Dad was still extremely respectful of its capabilities. He kept the ammo in a small safe, and the rifle out of reach. The burglar got the rifle, but not the ammo. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Though I've never been one, I know many avid hunters who exercise the same care, but for every story I can tell someone else can tell 100 negative stories.

By the way, IMHO, assault rifles being availible to the general public and the loop holes in licensing at gun shows are RIDICULOUS!

Bottom line? Americans will always have guns unless someone other than our own government can take them away from US.

As to the Constitution, of course it was made by flawed men, but it's the Code of Laws we base our society on. All societies have a Code of Laws, and ours as all others, has evolved over time and continues to evolve, but it still harkens to it's roots, in our case, the US Constitution. Which, admittedly, is less a "root system" and more like the entire foundation and structure combined.

PS. Yorik, what's up with your egg? It's not working.

[ 10-21-2002, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: [ Bottom line? Americans will always have guns unless someone other than our own government can take them away from US.

Hopefully that 'someone else' will be the American people themselves.

Ronn, I've actually read that poll after poll shows a majority of Americans in favor of greater gun control.

[Yorick]

Great post btw. Ronn. Cheers, salutations, and thankyous [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Now those are the "chants of freedom which, in reality, are cries for imprisonment". You know, Yorick, that would be an excellent song lyric . The "cries of imprisonment" line, really works against your argument as well as for it! To be free from "this", we must submit to "that". That ambiguity is another reason I think it would be a great song lyric. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks mate. A relationship is an example of that. You willingly reduce certain freedoms in exchange for the freedom to truly know, be known, love and feel with another person on a secure, deep and safe level.

[ 10-21-2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Chewbacca]

It says the right to bear ARMS, not neccessarrily guns in particular. We may as well be happy with swords, so we can look our victims in the eye when we inflict violence upon them, and we wouldn't have drive-by shootings or snipers unless they chucked knives at people.

Any hoo, its always been open to interpretation as well as amendedment.

Remember our great freedom doesn't even apply to the basic liberty of smoking pot, so we still have alot to learn.

[ 10-21-2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Azred]

I wouldn't say that the Founding Fathers were smarter than we are today, only well-educated for their time. With the exception of some window-dressing like fancy technology and different clothing styles, the basic problems they faced in everyday life are the same we face today--this is why the Constitution is such an excellent document. It was written to apply no matter what the styles or mores of the time may be and even incorporates rules for being amended.

The introduction being complete, let me move on to what I see has become the heart of the matter here: gun control.
Outlawing guns entirely will not reduce the rate of any sort of crime or make society any safer overall. Guns simply make the expression of violence easier, but they don't create violence. If guns are outlawed to make people more safe, then the logical progression should be to ban knives as potentially deadly weapons, even butter knives, as well as scissors, icepicks, hammers, screwdrivers, saws, crowbars, dowel rods, shower curtain rods, pens, pencils, fingernail clippers, plastic bags, lamps, and even CDs, because these are all items found in most households and can be used as deadly weapons. [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img]
Let's follow the logical progression a little further. We should outlaw touching another human, because your hands can also be deadly weapons.
And why stop there? If we outlaw the things that can cause death, let's outlaw the things that can cause non-fatal injury. This list includes everything that exists in the world today, including water. In fact, let's outlaw violent emotions and violent intent--that is the real root for any lack of security we have....

Seriously, if guns are outlawed, where does it end?

Benjamin Franklin stated that "those who would surrender freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security" (not an exact quote, but the message is the same).

The Founding Fathers decided that the government could not arbitrarily take away all guns because that would make America a place where the government, with its armed militia, could do exactly as it pleases, with no restrictions.

Ban guns? [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img] Besides, automobiles kill more people yearly than guns do.

[Leonis]

Azred, gun control does reduce at the very least the impact or result of certain crimes, and makes other crimes harder to pull off - rob a bank with a knife? doable, but a hell of a lot harder.
The laws also bring scruitiny to those criminal elements seeking to buy guns. It has made it quite hard in Australia to just go out and get one.

Incidently our knife laws were severely toughened too. Limiting who is allowed to buy or carry what types of knives and bringing in controls for storage and transportation too. You'll see chefs travelling around with locked tool boxes etc...

The arguments for weapons control is not to erradicate all such weapons related crimes. Noone's that naive. It's about harm reduction and access reduction.

Make it harder for people to simply get a gun or a big knife and act on impulse with it. How many lives 'saved' as a result does it take for this to be seen as acceptable by the pro-gunners?
In my view - just one.

It's done a lot more than that in this country I can tell you.

That's why every time a cop is shot at it makes headline news here. Because it's so rare.
That's why every time a gunman shoots innocent bystanders the whole country goes into mourning.

Almost all gun related crimes here are between criminals.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Yorick: Interpretations of the words change. The words themselves, without a vast majority of people and states, do not change. Re. Guns, it's not a different topic at all. The constitution is the reason why no American government is able to ban guns. No American government will, while the second Amendment holds. So yes it is fundamental to the gun debate. The constitutional stasis is cause death after death after death of the citizens it is meant to protect. To anyone new reading: Heresy? Am I offending you? How Holy are you regarding words made by politicians and soldiers of the past? If you're offended my case gains further proof.

Yorick, the constitutional stasis is not the cause of death, evil in the hearts of man causes man to take the life of another. If guns caused death then countries where private gun ownership is baned should have no deaths (murders)

As for the words of the Constitution I'm a super strict constructionalist.
ie: the 1st amendment "Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion". Not seperation of Church and State. That has come about by Supreme Court decesions, totaly ignoring the unquieness of the 1st amendment. Unlike the other amendments that make up the bill of rights, the 1st amend. is the only one that specificaly mentions a branch of the government. All of the rest of the amend. make a statement about what is a right of the people without any qualifers about a specific branch of the government.

Personaly, I think we should all carry side arms all the time, for the first couple of weeks the would be a lot of killing, but after the A-holes had killed each other off things would go a lot more smoothly. People would be a heck of alot more polite to each other, more manners, the last thing you would want to do is lose your temper with someone that is packing.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Azred: I wouldn't say that the Founding Fathers were smarter than we are today, only well-educated for their time. With the exception of some window-dressing like fancy technology and different clothing styles, the basic problems they faced in everyday life are the same we face today--this is why the Constitution is such an excellent document. It was written to apply no matter what the styles or mores of the time may be and even incorporates rules for being amended. The introduction being complete, let me move on to what I see has become the heart of the matter here: gun control. Outlawing guns entirely will not reduce the rate of any sort of crime or make society any safer overall. Guns simply make the expression of violence easier, but they don't create violence. If guns are outlawed to make people more safe, then the logical progression should be to ban knives as potentially deadly weapons, even butter knives, as well as scissors, icepicks, hammers, screwdrivers, saws, crowbars, dowel rods, shower curtain rods, pens, pencils, fingernail clippers, plastic bags, lamps, and even CDs, because these are all items found in most households and can be used as deadly weapons. [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img] Let's follow the logical progression a little further. We should outlaw touching another human, because your hands can also be deadly weapons. And why stop there? If we outlaw the things that can cause death, let's outlaw the things that can cause non-fatal injury. This list includes everything that exists in the world today, including water. In fact, let's outlaw violent emotions and violent intent--that is the real root for any lack of security we have.... Seriously, if guns are outlawed, where does it end? Benjamin Franklin stated that "those who would surrender freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security" (not an exact quote, but the message is the same). The Founding Fathers decided that the government could not arbitrarily take away all guns because that would make America a place where the government, with its armed militia, could do exactly as it pleases, with no restrictions. Ban guns? [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img] Besides, automobiles kill more people yearly than guns do.

Azred, I beleive it was TJ (Thomas Jefferson) that said t Other then that Ditto.