The American Constitution

Yorick · 10-21-2002, 11:13 AM

Why were the founding fathers so much smarter than anyone alive today?

Why are the founding fathers trusted more than people today?

Were they not human? Have they now been made gods? Whose word is irrefutable and unchanging.

Were they creating laws for a society of 280 million people? Collected from around the globe? A nation that stretches from coast to coast, including a pacific Island and Arctic territory? A nation with computers, uzis nuclear warheads, cars, planes, aids, massive homelessness and obesity, with television and manufactured stars/icons, with financial priests of the stockmarket, and the chance to cryogenically freeze your head? With the psychological problems associated with living in todays world?

Just because America has the same name as then, does not make it the same county. It exists in a radically different place within the fourth dimension...time.

As such, guns are no longer slowly loading single shot arms, but sleek machines of death.

They cannot be banned in America, becasue the founding fathers decreed it.

The word of the American founding fathers is practically impossible to redesign. Even though the applicable words are an AMMENDMENT.

Almost every western democratic nation has revised their constitution. Changing it as society changed. Their leaders are no different to their leaders of the past. Arguing about what's right. Angling for their cause. Representing a portion of the community. Thinking lustful thoughts about a woman they work with.

These are not new aspects of humanity.

Yet, Americans today are prisoners. They are imprisoned by the chains of the past. By the deification of words agreed on by a group of humans. Imperfect humans trying to forge their way through a hostile planet and difficult life. No different to you and I.

Timber Loftis · 10-21-2002, 11:26 AM

There are rules for amending the constitution. It's hard to do, because the drafters wanted to make sure the document itself was only changed when an overwhelming majority agreed. Such as giving women the right to vote. Such as giving complete control of alcohol sales to the individual states.

As for an unchanging document - hogwash. The constitution changes every year - in Supreme Court decisions. A right to contract used to exist in the constitution: it was why an 80-hour workweek, unfair labor conditions, and child labor could not be legally stopped. Then, one Supreme Court (or a few)decision changed all that. "Separate but equal" was once acceptable (Plessy v. Fergusen), but the Supreme Court later declared "separate is never equal" (Brown v. Bd. of Education of Topeka). The constitution changes all the time.

The secret is not in the document itself, but in society's understanding of it. As well, most states have redone their constitutions in the last 3/4 century. And since you, as the citizen of the state, are entitled to protections under both documents, the update you're yearning for has already happened - you get the state constitution's protections and rules where they go further than the federal constitutuion.

I would say that most countries would tell us that America is not conscious enough of the past. In fact, it has been the major catalyst for change in the world this century, for better or worse. I see America, as a persona, as a young spoiled teenager-with-a-nose-ring country with all of Daddy's millions to spend as it pleases. Quite modern, wouldn't you say?

Guns -that's another topic. Clearly, as evidenced in the polls and on this board, Americans do not want to give up their love affair with firearms.

[ 10-21-2002, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

10-21-2002, 11:30 AM

Can you give any good reasons to change what they wrought? have you ever been part of an endeavor that was so successful? Have you ever lead any number of people? I think they did an exceptional job, they worked off principles of freedom and personal liberty, yes there were a couple of gaffs, but what they created has turned into what is arguably the most successful nation in all of history.

You mention the 2nd ammendment. You are seemingly upset thatt hey are "sleek machines of death" whatever that means. Firearms have always since their invention been weapons of death and destruction. The concept has not changed. Please read what George Washington wrote about them and why he viewed them as essential to each and every man (not just militia as some would have us believe) I will look for links to the writings if I have the chance, but you can google as well as I can.

Were they infallible? nope, they made mistakes but they were wise enough to limit their unchanging documents to fundamental principles and left room for growth outside the framework. They couldn't agree on the slavery issue when they wrote the constitution so they wrote it with the language that allowed later generations to do away with it. All in all they were not deities, they were just men, men who believed in a cause and in some certain fundamental principles and founded a nation on those principles. If you don't like the principles, why not go found your own country? Or start a revolution of your own? Don't jsut sit there do something about it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Show me a group of people who have brought into being something better and more successful in such a short period of time.

Just my opinions and not to be taken as criticism of Yorick or his positions what ever they may be. Peace!, Freedom! and Liberty! for all men and women thats what I want and believe in. Some times you also have to fight for them.

10-21-2002, 11:35 AM

Just thought I should mention that I do not love my firearm, my car, my hammer or my toothbrush. I have no love affair with an implement that is my right to bear. I have a love for the freedom and liberty I was afforded by the second ammendment as well as the 1st and the third and ther 4th etc. I will not give up my rights, just because a bunch of PC activists think they know better or can improve upon the bill of rights.

Yorick asked why we shouldn't mimick other nations in how they run their affairs, why not just move to one of those nations Yorick, rather than make everyone in this one bend to your will?

Yorick · 10-21-2002, 11:38 AM

Interpretations of the words change. The words themselves, without a vast majority of people and states, do not change.

Re. Guns, it's not a different topic at all. The constitution is the reason why no American government is able to ban guns. No American government will, while the second Amendment holds.

So yes it is fundamental to the gun debate.

The constitutional stasis is cause death after death after death of the citizens it is meant to protect.

To anyone new reading:

Heresy? Am I offending you?

How Holy are you regarding words made by politicians and soldiers of the past?

If you're offended my case gains further proof.

Yorick · 10-21-2002, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MagiK:

Yorick asked why we shouldn't mimick other nations in how they run their affairs, why not just move to one of those nations Yorick, rather than make everyone in this one bend to your will?

You mean why didn't I stay at home? "Aussie go home." Is that what you mean? Leave American issues for Americans?

Why do Americans get involved in Somalia or Bosnia? Why do Americans give aid to third world nations, effectively meddling with them?

Because people are dying.

10-21-2002, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

Yorick asked why we shouldn't mimick other nations in how they run their affairs, why not just move to one of those nations Yorick, rather than make everyone in this one bend to your will?

You mean why didn't I stay at home? "Aussie go home." Is that what you mean? Leave American issues for Americans?

Why do Americans get involved in Somalia or Bosnia? Why do Americans give aid to third world nations, effectively meddling with them?

Because people are dying.

Thats not what I said at all. I was asking your thoughts on the questions I asked. I was not telling you anything. I used interogatives not statements. Of course I would wonder, why an Australian would care one way or the other about the American Constitution. Being a foreign national you do have the option to go home any time you want [img]smile.gif[/img] That is another right you have here.

People are dying? By and large fewer people are dying here than in other places in the world, why not crusade to save some truly massive numbers of people. I believe Asia now has the highest death rate in the world...of course more than half of the worlds population is located there so you would expect, more people, more deaths. Out of 300,000,000 people in this country less than 1% are dead due to illegal arms. that really isn't a bad statistic. On the other hand if you completely remove all freedom and liberty from the country you might make the number smaller...or you might make it bigger due to the revolts. Anyway those are my opinions, I have them because this is my country. Why are you so fixated on my country when there are others with worse problems?[/QUOTE]

[ 10-21-2002, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Timber Loftis · 10-21-2002, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yorick:
Interpretations of the words change. The words themselves, without a vast majority of people and states, do not change.

Give me all power to interpret the words, and you can write whatever text you like and I promise I'll win.

What the words mean is every bit as important as what words are written.

Likewise, give me every procedural concession and I'll give you every substantive concession and again I'll win every time - because we won't even get to your argument.

Sorry, but these are basic rules in what I do every day.

10-21-2002, 12:14 PM

Yourick, you asked if you were speaking heresy the answer is no, this is not a religious debate [img]smile.gif[/img] , Do you offend me? no, but from my perspective you just don't understand the ideals on wich this country is based. As I said, why are you picking on this nation when there are places, states, and nations that are comitting truly horrible attrocities on large scale numbers of citizens. Do you do this here in the USA because it is safe, and secure for you to do so here and dangerous and deadly for you to go to the nations where really bad things are happening?

khazadman · 10-21-2002, 12:21 PM

The right to keep and bear arms does not mean for hunting only. It is also for protection from an overreaching government.

10-21-2002, 11:13 AM	#1
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	Why were the founding fathers so much smarter than anyone alive today? Why are the founding fathers trusted more than people today? Were they not human? Have they now been made gods? Whose word is irrefutable and unchanging. Were they creating laws for a society of 280 million people? Collected from around the globe? A nation that stretches from coast to coast, including a pacific Island and Arctic territory? A nation with computers, uzis nuclear warheads, cars, planes, aids, massive homelessness and obesity, with television and manufactured stars/icons, with financial priests of the stockmarket, and the chance to cryogenically freeze your head? With the psychological problems associated with living in todays world? Just because America has the same name as then, does not make it the same county. It exists in a radically different place within the fourth dimension...time. As such, guns are no longer slowly loading single shot arms, but sleek machines of death. They cannot be banned in America, becasue the founding fathers decreed it. The word of the American founding fathers is practically impossible to redesign. Even though the applicable words are an AMMENDMENT. Almost every western democratic nation has revised their constitution. Changing it as society changed. Their leaders are no different to their leaders of the past. Arguing about what's right. Angling for their cause. Representing a portion of the community. Thinking lustful thoughts about a woman they work with. These are not new aspects of humanity. Yet, Americans today are prisoners. They are imprisoned by the chains of the past. By the deification of words agreed on by a group of humans. Imperfect humans trying to forge their way through a hostile planet and difficult life. No different to you and I. __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

10-21-2002, 11:26 AM	#2
Timber Loftis 40th Level Warrior Join Date: July 11, 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 11,916	There are rules for amending the constitution. It's hard to do, because the drafters wanted to make sure the document itself was only changed when an overwhelming majority agreed. Such as giving women the right to vote. Such as giving complete control of alcohol sales to the individual states. As for an unchanging document - hogwash. The constitution changes every year - in Supreme Court decisions. A right to contract used to exist in the constitution: it was why an 80-hour workweek, unfair labor conditions, and child labor could not be legally stopped. Then, one Supreme Court (or a few)decision changed all that. "Separate but equal" was once acceptable (Plessy v. Fergusen), but the Supreme Court later declared "separate is never equal" (Brown v. Bd. of Education of Topeka). The constitution changes all the time. The secret is not in the document itself, but in society's understanding of it. As well, most states have redone their constitutions in the last 3/4 century. And since you, as the citizen of the state, are entitled to protections under both documents, the update you're yearning for has already happened - you get the state constitution's protections and rules where they go further than the federal constitutuion. I would say that most countries would tell us that America is not conscious enough of the past. In fact, it has been the major catalyst for change in the world this century, for better or worse. I see America, as a persona, as a young spoiled teenager-with-a-nose-ring country with all of Daddy's millions to spend as it pleases. Quite modern, wouldn't you say? Guns -that's another topic. Clearly, as evidenced in the polls and on this board, Americans do not want to give up their love affair with firearms. [ 10-21-2002, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ] __________________

10-21-2002, 11:38 AM	#5
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	Interpretations of the words change. The words themselves, without a vast majority of people and states, do not change. Re. Guns, it's not a different topic at all. The constitution is the reason why no American government is able to ban guns. No American government will, while the second Amendment holds. So yes it is fundamental to the gun debate. The constitutional stasis is cause death after death after death of the citizens it is meant to protect. To anyone new reading: Heresy? Am I offending you? How Holy are you regarding words made by politicians and soldiers of the past? If you're offended my case gains further proof. __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

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10-21-2002, 11:30 AM	#3
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	Can you give any good reasons to change what they wrought? have you ever been part of an endeavor that was so successful? Have you ever lead any number of people? I think they did an exceptional job, they worked off principles of freedom and personal liberty, yes there were a couple of gaffs, but what they created has turned into what is arguably the most successful nation in all of history. You mention the 2nd ammendment. You are seemingly upset thatt hey are "sleek machines of death" whatever that means. Firearms have always since their invention been weapons of death and destruction. The concept has not changed. Please read what George Washington wrote about them and why he viewed them as essential to each and every man (not just militia as some would have us believe) I will look for links to the writings if I have the chance, but you can google as well as I can. Were they infallible? nope, they made mistakes but they were wise enough to limit their unchanging documents to fundamental principles and left room for growth outside the framework. They couldn't agree on the slavery issue when they wrote the constitution so they wrote it with the language that allowed later generations to do away with it. All in all they were not deities, they were just men, men who believed in a cause and in some certain fundamental principles and founded a nation on those principles. If you don't like the principles, why not go found your own country? Or start a revolution of your own? Don't jsut sit there do something about it. [img]smile.gif[/img] Show me a group of people who have brought into being something better and more successful in such a short period of time. Just my opinions and not to be taken as criticism of Yorick or his positions what ever they may be. Peace!, Freedom! and Liberty! for all men and women thats what I want and believe in. Some times you also have to fight for them.

10-21-2002, 11:35 AM	#4
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	Just thought I should mention that I do not love my firearm, my car, my hammer or my toothbrush. I have no love affair with an implement that is my right to bear. I have a love for the freedom and liberty I was afforded by the second ammendment as well as the 1st and the third and ther 4th etc. I will not give up my rights, just because a bunch of PC activists think they know better or can improve upon the bill of rights. Yorick asked why we shouldn't mimick other nations in how they run their affairs, why not just move to one of those nations Yorick, rather than make everyone in this one bend to your will?

10-21-2002, 12:14 PM	#9
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	Yourick, you asked if you were speaking heresy the answer is no, this is not a religious debate [img]smile.gif[/img] , Do you offend me? no, but from my perspective you just don't understand the ideals on wich this country is based. As I said, why are you picking on this nation when there are places, states, and nations that are comitting truly horrible attrocities on large scale numbers of citizens. Do you do this here in the USA because it is safe, and secure for you to do so here and dangerous and deadly for you to go to the nations where really bad things are happening?

10-21-2002, 12:21 PM	#10
khazadman User suspended until [Feb13] Join Date: December 6, 2001 Location: the south side of ol virginny Age: 62 Posts: 1,172	The right to keep and bear arms does not mean for hunting only. It is also for protection from an overreaching government.

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