07-20-2001, 11:14 PM | #11 | |
Ironworks Moderator
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Upstate NY USA
Posts: 19,737
|
Quote:
Absynthe, if in fact no eggs are fertilized to create the material being cloned, then I might rescind my objections. But I'm still wary. Such things make criminal activity very lucrative. And the unscrupulous will make a buck in any way they can. sigh... this is a rough one and it will not be going away soon, I think. And thank you for the apology. You have always been a very civil and thoughtful debater and I have always had the greatest respect for you. Moridin, who said I or others approve of the routine 'discarding' of those embryos and the very question: "is that 'life'"? is the one that begs all the discussing! *heavy sigh* Where are you , Yorick? My poor 'philisophical/theological' skills need shoring up, my friend. Cloudy ------------------ Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." [This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 07-20-2001).] |
|
07-20-2001, 11:38 PM | #12 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
In the year 2525
In the year 2525 If man is still alive If woman can survive They may find... In the year 3535 Ain't gonna need to tell the truth, tell no lies Everything you think, do, or say Is in the pill you took today In the year 4545 Ain't gonna need your teeth, won't need your eyes You won't find a thing to do Nobody's gonna look at you In the year 5555 Your arms are hanging limp at your sides Your legs not nothing to do Some machine is doing that for you In the year 6565 Ain't gonna need no husband, won't need no wife You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too From the bottom of a long black tube In the year 7510 If God's a-comin' he ought to make it by then Maybe he'll look around himself and say Guess it's time for the Judgement day In the year 8510 God's gonna shake his mighty head He'll either say ``I'm pleased where man has been Or tear it down and start again In the year 9595 I'm kinda wondering if man's gonna be alive He's taken everything this old earth can give And he ain't put back nothing... Now it's been 10,000 years Man has cried a billion tears For what he never knew Now man's reign is through But through the eternal night The twinkling of starlight So very far away Maybe it's only yesterday... Zager And Evans Album : (Exordium And Terminus) Gives Me Chills Moni ------------------ |
07-21-2001, 02:17 AM | #13 | ||
Ironworks Moderator
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Upstate NY USA
Posts: 19,737
|
Quote:
Quote:
Cloudy ------------------ Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." |
||
07-21-2001, 02:22 AM | #14 |
Symbol of Cyric
Join Date: May 24, 2001
Location: The Lands of Forever
Age: 39
Posts: 1,132
|
I'm for it because the stem cells are being taken from embryos and the embryos are just going to be discarded anyway. And as far as I am concerned, the embryo isn't a person yet. I don't personally believe that a person is a person until they are born. Also, my father has MS and stem cells could be the means in which MS is cured, so don't you think that I'd be for it?
Also, I am Christian and I'm not ashamed to admit it. That fact is a very imporant part of my life. However, I don't see how stem cell research really violates any of my beliefs. The embryos used are the ones left over from in-vitro fertilization and are just going to be discarded so why waste something will potentially save lives or improve them. Stem cell research is something with a lot of potential and I think it should be pursued. -Jafin ------------------ I am Jafin, arch-mage of the HADB clan! [This message has been edited by Jafin (edited 07-21-2001).] |
07-21-2001, 02:36 AM | #15 |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
|
Wasn't this question raised when the Nazis were conducting experiments on humans they deemed as worthless to save the lives they deemed as worth it. Isn't the fact that some regard the embryos enough of a concern to those that don't? It's not just a matter of what an individual thinks, but also what others think. We have to allow for the possiblity that we could be wrong.
What do we lose by not conducting the research? Slower advances in medicine. That's it. Same status quo, just a slower advance. The human race has survived and propogated without it. What do we lose by conducting it? We risk the chance that the moral objectors are right, and that we are committing a horendous crime upon humans. We are also emotionally harming and disempowering a large section of the community that provide a safeguard for moral concern over human rights issues such as childcare, battered wife/child sheltering, care for the homeless and the poor etc. **Here's a thought: Usually the death of a child is considered worse than the death of an elderly citizen because of the unrealised potential and the life experiences that were denied. How much more in the case of an embryo?** The topic is a touchy one. Both sides have care for the Race at heart, but which side is damaged the most? ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! [This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 07-21-2001).] |
07-21-2001, 04:03 AM | #16 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Quote:
There is no evidence at all for the existence of what people would call a soul. If their is no evidence,it cannot be assumed to exist until there is evidence to prove otherwise. belief or faith in an idea does not make it valid. ------------------ Under the Banner |
|
07-21-2001, 10:58 AM | #17 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
If I may butt in...
Well I know I have a soul! Not anything believed through speculation but one seen and felt through death itself. No I was not hallucinating, I died for a short time. I used to experiment in out of body experiences as well. There really is more to me than just a shell. Can't say it is true for all humans even though I think it is. So there Moni ------------------ |
07-21-2001, 11:05 AM | #18 |
Drow Warrior
Join Date: June 5, 2001
Location: Canvey Island, Essex, England
Age: 46
Posts: 252
|
At which point does a package of DNA or an embryo cease to become that and actually become a life? I know the argument would probably be when it is capable of conscious thought but plants aren't capable of that yet they are still alive. also, if you are declared medically "brain dead" you're also not capable of conscious thought but the idea of experimenting on someone in this condition is unacceptable. On the other hand could you tell the mother or father of a terminally ill child that you can do nothing because of this sort of moral argument? I'm normally very proud of my opinions and stubborn with it but this is an area that I really don't know which way to go on and I pity those who do have to decide policy on this sort of thing because it's a no win situation.
|
07-21-2001, 12:26 PM | #19 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
|
Quote:
Belief or faith in an idea does not make it valid. Actually Dramnek, belief and faith in an idea is exactly what makes it valid. If no human believes and has faith in an idea, it does not exist. An idea exists only in belief and faith - in the mind. It's called ABSTRACT THOUGHT. I say I have a soul. It is up to you to prove otherwise. The onus of proof is on you for I have made my statement based on what I have experienced internally. You say you do not have a soul. Do you see me arguing with you? You souless husk ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! |
|
07-21-2001, 02:14 PM | #20 | |
Ironworks Moderator
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Upstate NY USA
Posts: 19,737
|
Quote:
You know five hundred years ago, nobody could prove air existed and it was thought that evil spirits made one sick. Is the fact that empirical proof (slides and microscope views et al) were not available to prove the existence of bacteria and viruses, proof that diseases were not caused by them then? Were diseases caused by evil spirits until we had proof that viruses and germs are responsible? Of course not! And the fact that we cannot draw a picture of a soul does not mean it doesn't exist. It means we are incapable of understanding it at this time. There are many things in this universe that we do not yet know about and every day new discoveries are made. Those things existed before man found them and I'm sure many of us would never have envisioned them but that doesn't make them invalid. I for one have never seen an atom or neutrino or a black hole. Do they exist? Well I'm willing to suspend my disbelief. Are you? And sorry, but in this instance I believe you are wrong. My faith is enough for me. It is not enough for *you*, would be a more accurate comment, I think. Statements like yours do not change the the fact that my faith endures. Nor do they make me or others suddenly decide that you are right. All they do is make it crystal clear that there are a whole lot of differing views on the issue. My point being, that while it is your opinion that there is no soul, you cannot prove to it my satisfaction. And I cannot prove it's existence to yours. Stalemate, I believe. Cloudy ------------------ Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." [This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 07-21-2001).] |
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Dane fights for state-funded sex | dplax | General Discussion | 14 | 10-07-2005 01:55 PM |
Stem Cell breakthrough in Korea | Morgeruat | General Discussion | 5 | 06-23-2005 11:33 AM |
Official report says 'Israel funded illegal outposts' | shamrock_uk | General Discussion | 0 | 03-09-2005 02:54 PM |
Switzerland votes in favour of stem cell research | Dreamer128 | General Discussion | 0 | 11-29-2004 10:21 AM |
Bush funded by Bin Laden? | Sparhawk | General Discussion | 1 | 03-11-2004 03:16 PM |