Guns.

[Neb]

Originally posted by AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe: Making guns illegal would only serve to make the public a lot less secure in their own homes, knowing any criminal with a gun could walk in and do whatever they want to you because you are basically defenseless. that is not the way to live.

Well, refer to my comment on it, it gives you a chance to survive. I think that most thieves would rather just knock you out instead of being chased by the police for murder, but if you're threatening them with a gun I think that they'd rather shoot to live than risk their own lives.

Originally posted by AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe: As for the first part of my discussion about the dictator thing. Why do you think our founding fathers thought the right to bear arms important enough to put in the bill of rights? The felt it not just important, but a RIGHT for a person to be able to protect themself, and I agree with them.

Well, I don't [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I think that the dictator thing is so far out that it cannot even be considered as a logical argument, besides that I don't think that the populace would do much good against the dictator's army even if they had guns.

Originally posted by AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe: Taking guns away wouldnt stop crime, because they would still be available to the criminal element, look how good the police are at stopping people from getting drugs (not very good) One can only assume that guns would be the same way. All getting rid of guns would do is make the general public defenseless against those that do have guns, something no one deserves.

They would still be availiable to SOME of the criminal element. That which had the right connections. And it's somewhat harder to hide a gun, metal detectors should be able to find most. And while you can hide a small packet of cocaine up your anus I don't think it's quite as easy, and a lot more painful, to hide a Desert Eagle there.

I've already commented on the defenseless part. I think that it'll put the average gun owner in more danger than it'll protect him from. And besides that there is STILL the "kids getting their hands on the guns" argument which you did not reply to.

Let us say that John owns a gun, he gets VERY depressed, sees his gun, and shoots himself. Now if he did NOT have a gun he might not kill himself since he did not have as easy or painless a way, if he could not buy a gun he could not have one, and I doubt that your average guy would have the right connections to get a gun illegally. Or have any idea about how to make them.

[Davros]

Not enought time for a full reply so Sir T, but a few points :
1) West Australia has the smallest population of the mainland states, so the statistic for WA is subject to a significant population bias per event.
2) I live in WA, and so remember the events (some multiple murder suicides and a bikie tit for tat shooting spree) that distorted your stats for 1999.
3) I haven't got time to search for the other "missing gap" stats, but would think they are better interpreted Australia wide rather than on this cross section.
4) West Australia probably also has more guns per 100,000 people than most states (and we have more than our share per capita of red necks and gun freaks)

On the orignal topic - I am anti-gun.

[AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe]

NEB:Well, refer to my comment on it, it gives you a chance to survive. I think that most thieves would rather just knock you out instead of being chased by the police for murder, but if you're threatening them with a gun I think that they'd rather shoot to live than risk their own lives.

ME: That would be reaching far to assume that most armed robbers that are willing to break into your housed to steal something from you wouldnt be willing to kill you regardless, In other words if they have a weapon they are likely to use it, whether its a Magnum or a baseball bat. If they are going to break into your house and they want to carry a weapon then they are going to do just that, and the outcome is going to be the same. Guns just give you a better chance to protect yourself. Say niether of you has a gun but the criminal outweighs you by 30 lbs. of muscle.
If they are breaking in your house and they dont have a gun and you do then you will be able to stop them. If they break in and neither of you have a gun, you probably wont be as lucky. If they break in and you both have guns, at least you are on an even playing field.


NEB:I think that the dictator thing is so far out that it cannot even be considered as a logical argument, besides that I don't think that the populace would do much good against the dictator's army even if they had guns.

ME: well the king of england was considered an evil dictator type when America won their independence. I know France, and most of Europe had a bunch of revolutions in the past due to the citizens thinking their leaders were the evil dictator type. I know many underdeveloped countries are going through this type of thing right now. The idea is not as far fetched as it might sounds considering that it has happened hundreds of time thropughout history

NEB:They would still be availiable to SOME of the criminal element. That which had the right connections. And it's somewhat harder to hide a gun, metal detectors should be able to find most. And while you can hide a small packet of cocaine up your anus I don't think it's quite as easy, and a lot more painful, to hide a Desert Eagle there.

ME:You completely overestimate our police force. If there is a demand for it it would be available. Takeing away guns would only serve to take guns away from the honest citizens looking to protect themselves. Criminals would still have guns readily available, I mean what do you think the average criminal is just going to hand over his guns once they become illegal? OF course not they are going to keep them and keep using them for crime.

NEB:I've already commented on the defenseless part. I think that it'll put the average gun owner in more danger than it'll protect him from. And besides that there is STILL the "kids getting their hands on the guns" argument which you did not reply to.

ME:We need to teach kids to respect guns at a young age that way they wouldnt pull down a gun and treat it as a toy. If parents took the time to educate kids on guns almost all of our problems with that would be taken care of.

NEB: Let us say that John owns a gun, he gets VERY depressed, sees his gun, and shoots himself. Now if he did NOT have a gun he might not kill himself since he did not have as easy or painless a way, if he could not buy a gun he could not have one, and I doubt that your average guy would have the right connections to get a gun illegally. Or have any idea about how to make them.[/QB][/QUOTE]

ME:IF John didnt have a gun to kill himself im sure if he was serious about it he would find another way. John grabs a few pills, a bottle of vodka and a razor, by the time he is done with the pills and the vodka John cant feel a thing so he slits his wrists. . . The coroner says that he took enough sleeping pills with the vodka that he would have been dead in 20 minutes anyways, poor depressed John.

EDIT: i screwed up the quote thing pretty bad here I hope you can still understand the post. Sorry again about the confusion. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-23-2002, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe ]

[Donut]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: quote: Originally posted by Sazerac: quote: Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Epona and Donut MOVE away from there!

EVERYONE who was involved in the altercation needs to drop it...including YOU, Sir Taliesin. Everything has settled down nicely, and we don't need it getting started up again by singling people out.

To put it bluntly (and forgive my choice of epithet), crusted-over dogshit won't stink until someone takes a stick and stirs it up again. QUIT STIRRING.

-Sazerac[/QUOTE]Excuse me Saz, but please go back to my post and read the line that directly precedes what you have quoted. I believe that I to joined your chorus to tone down the heated debate.

As for what I was talking about in the quote you took from my post, I refer to Donut's statement on page 5.

"What I will agree with you on is that you are more likely to be a victim of crime in England than in the USA but I haven't heard anyone disputing this. If you live where I live in London it is even more dangerous. If you live in Central London (like Epona) you are virtually a crime statistic waiting to happen."

If I offended Donut or Epona I'm sorry. I should have added Donut's statement to the Bold Letters in my original post. I was not angry with them or anyone else here.[/QUOTE]No offense taken Sir Tal, I took your post to mean exactly that. But life isn't that simple.

I was brought up in Islington which is in Inner London. It was a working class area with all the advantages and problems that a working class area brings. I feel safe there, even now, because it's what I am used to. When it came to buying my own property I was forced to move to outer London because of property prices in Islington. Average price for a one bedroom flat is £191,000 and a two bedromm terraced house £310,000. There are properties near where I work that cost £1m and the cost of renting a car parking space is £25,000 a year.

So now I live in 'leafy' Enfield and it feels like I'm living in the countryside. But it's not home and I feel less safe walking through Enfield Town on a friday night than I would in Islington. I've only been burgled once and it was done during the day so I wasn't there.

Council................................Islington.. English average

Vehicle Crimes, per 1,000 population........92.0.......16
Burglaries, per 1,000 households..............36.0.......14
Violent Crimes, per 1,000 population........42.0.......10

[ 05-24-2002, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

[Earthdog]

Ive been shot. .38 special+ with hollow point.... 25 grains shy of being a .357 magnum ... at arms length.

Im still against gun laws.

Someone posted earlier that carrying a pistol and a submachine gun are two completely different things. I disagree with a certain part of that logic.

The reason why guns were ever legal in the United States to begin with were very very simple. Not just to protect you and your loved ones and your/their property but to protect you and them from TYRANNY.

They gave you the right to bear Arms to protect you from your own GOVERNMENT. Thats a fact. Look at all the crap our Forefathers had to go through to get out from under the tyranny of the English Crown.

They had to revolt by force of arms. They gave you the right to do the same if you think the goverment needs to be changed. Ive heard all the crap about the best revolution is by VOTING, BULL!!! It doesnt work like that. Anyone with half a brain knows that the powers that be want to stay in power. They will do anything to acheive that. They wish to preserve their soft pampered jet set way of life. No one in power relinquishes freely.

Ok you can vote out the old guy and bring in the new guy. He starts out wanting to fight the system. It doesnt take long for him to BECOME part of the system he so dispised.

To quote Thomas Jefferson: A government needs a revolution every 20 years to keep it honest.

They wanted George Washington to be KING. He refused saying something to the effect of "What do you think I was just fighting against???"

So we dont end up with a bunch of POWER FREAKS in control of our daily lives. SHEESH. I watched CNET one day and they were argueing about SHOWERHEAD Pressure!!! Do you need to be told how much water pressure you can have when you take a shower???? Why should we spend our tax money discussing such dumb crap???? Its a waste of time AND money. Politicians make damn good money and the perks are even better. Free helicopter rides anytime they want em... at our expense.

Back to what I disagree with about pistols and sub machine guns. If the goverment has machine guns and tanks and submachine guns and F-16s why cant WE the public have them too???? If its time for a revolution we need to be on equal footing just like during the Revolutionary War.

Im not saying that Im a revolutionary. Far from it. But I think when the time comes... You need to fight fire with fire. Machine guns legally obtained and responsibly kept shouldnt be illegal. The Powers that BE see that as a threat to their way of life. They dont like change unless they are the ones to instigate it. So they control how we fight when the people have had enough and are forced to revolt.

Im completely atgainst gun laws. Fully or semi automatic. Makes no difference to me. They are violating your right as an American by telling you what kind of gun you can own. Next they'll be telling you what Brand and model you can own.

FYI Texas is the only state that can legally succeed from the Union. Texas should. If Texas does succeed Ill be on the next flight back home.

[ 05-24-2002, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Earthdog ]

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

originaly poster by :Moiriane

And last, do you watch your house all the time ? There is always a chance that a group of youngsters may pick your lock while you are away, and find your gun collection ... How would you feel then, knowing your own gun has killed fellow humans ?

If someone broke into MY house and killed themself playing with MY gun I would thank Darwin for thinning the abysmaly stupid out of the gene pool. IMHO if you break into someones house you DESERVE whatever punishment is imposed upon you,be it jail time if the cops catch you or grave time if the owner catches you.

[Earthdog]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: originaly poster by :Moiriane quote: And last, do you watch your house all the time ? There is always a chance that a group of youngsters may pick your lock while you are away, and find your gun collection ... How would you feel then, knowing your own gun has killed fellow humans ?

If someone broke into MY house and killed themself playing with MY gun I would thank Darwin for thinning the abysmaly stupid out of the gene pool. IMHO if you break into someones house you DESERVE whatever punishment is imposed upon you,be it jail time if the cops catch you or grave time if the owner catches you.[/QUOTE]Ya got that right. Especially if their own stupidity does them in.

Theres one thing I agree with as far as middle eastern countries laws go. Ya steal something they cut off your hand. Steal something again and they cut off your other hand. Steal something again (if you can manage it) they cut off you head. Now theres a serious 3 time loser law. 3 strikes and youre out..... permanently.

Ive actually seen a video of a guy in Saudi Arabia who raped a woman. They publicly cut off his penis. The woman he did it to was forced to watch so that she would see with her own eyes that justice had been served.

Seems like a criminal justice system at its finest to me.

[Neb]

Originally posted by Earthdog: quote: Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: originaly poster by :Moiriane quote: And last, do you watch your house all the time ? There is always a chance that a group of youngsters may pick your lock while you are away, and find your gun collection ... How would you feel then, knowing your own gun has killed fellow humans ?

If someone broke into MY house and killed themself playing with MY gun I would thank Darwin for thinning the abysmaly stupid out of the gene pool. IMHO if you break into someones house you DESERVE whatever punishment is imposed upon you,be it jail time if the cops catch you or grave time if the owner catches you.[/QUOTE]Ya got that right. Especially if their own stupidity does them in.

Theres one thing I agree with as far as middle eastern countries laws go. Ya steal something they cut off your hand. Steal something again and they cut off your other hand. Steal something again (if you can manage it) they cut off you head. Now theres a serious 3 time loser law. 3 strikes and youre out..... permanently.

Ive actually seen a video of a guy in Saudi Arabia who raped a woman. They publicly cut off his penis. The woman he did it to was forced to watch so that she would see with her own eyes that justice had been served.

Seems like a criminal justice system at its finest to me.[/QUOTE]I agree perfectly with Jahanna's sentiment, I'm not much in favour of mercy for someone who's THAT stupid. As for what Earthdog has said in his last couple of posts...

I agree with the punishment for rape, only disgusting and vile inhuman persons do it, I'd happily apply that punishment to a rapist myself.

As for the revolution stuff, what if you get a NICE government that can actually do things well? Then everyone's armed heavily, and someone wants a dictatorship with him in power.... Lo and behold! Due to your logic being followed he can easily get heavy weapons to take out the current ruler(s)!

Generally arming the public with anything beyond stunguns, mace and such is a bad idea. ANYONE could get drunk and unleash their weapons on the rest of the public, the "fighting the dictators!" thing is just too far out an argument to help anything, that's my honest opinion. When in the last 100 years have the american population had to fight a "dictator" and win back their country?

[quote]Originally posted by Neb:

Generally arming the public with anything beyond stunguns, mace and such is a bad idea. ANYONE could get drunk and unleash their weapons on the rest of the public, the "fighting the dictators!" thing is just too far out an argument to help anything, that's my honest opinion. When in the last 100 years have the american population had to fight a "dictator" and win back their country?

Well the US shows that this is not true, 400,000,000 legally owned firearms, and there is not a wave of drunken gunfire sweeping the nation. I know some times the news media makes it sound bad, but on the whole, there is actually little chance of an average person in this country of ever seeing a gun fight during their life...unless they join the military and even then the odds are against it.

Why does no one pay attention to the vast number of people who own guns and do nothing illegal and only use them for recreation, hunting or self defense? These people seem to count for nothing and only the small minority of the people who illegally use guns seem to be all important.

You do know, that we in the US have more people killed in cars that are used in a manner that is illegal....namely they are exceeding the speed limit, being driven while drunk or high or used as weapons in cases of Road Rage.

[ 05-24-2002, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Neb]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Neb: Generally arming the public with anything beyond stunguns, mace and such is a bad idea. ANYONE could get drunk and unleash their weapons on the rest of the public, the "fighting the dictators!" thing is just too far out an argument to help anything, that's my honest opinion. When in the last 100 years have the american population had to fight a "dictator" and win back their country? Well the US shows that this is not true, 400,000,000 legally owned firearms, and there is not a wave of drunken gunfire sweeping the nation. I know some times the news media makes it sound bad, but on the whole, there is actually little chance of an average person in this country of ever seeing a gun fight during their life...unless they join the military and even then the odds are against it. Why does no one pay attention to the vast number of people who own guns and do nothing illegal and only use them for recreation, hunting or self defense? These people seem to count for nothing and only the small minority of the people who illegally use guns seem to be all important.

MagiK, I DO pay attention to those who use them correctly. But I think that the safety of some is more important than others having fun, and I'm pretty damn sure that someone HAS already gotten drunk and shot someone else.