Computer games, whats wrong with them?

[Erekose]

I must admit despite the visual quality of BG and the like, i miss the ideas in games such as Pool of Radiance. I hope POR2 doesn't allow a party to go from level 1 to 900069 in the breath of one game. What was wrong with fewer monsters in number and the limitations of levels? At least then you could expect difficult expansions. I guess its too much money to turn out 5 long games with such limits (eg. game 1 with levels 1-6, game 2 with levels 6-12, game 3 levels 12- 16, and so on?) then one short one with no real limits...
Interested in other peoples thoughts on the topic,
Cheers

[Memnoch]

Good topic, Erekose. I hope you get a lot of responses. It's a funny thing, CRPGs. After BG1 Bioware/Interplay held a lot of focus groups and the key message from consumers was that they wanted a more powerful protagonist, more powerful monsters and more powerful weapons for BG2. People wanted to be able to cast high level spells, wield +3 weapons, and fight dragons.

The timeframe to achieve this obviously flies in the face of conventional PnP roleplaying logic, where it can take years to get to a powerful level. To put things in perspective, in about 100+ game days your wizards attained a level of power that it took Manshoon, the leader of the Zhentarim, over 50 years to attain. By the end of the expansion you will likely be at a level that took Szass Tam, the undead ruler of Thay, over three centuries to get to. So it seems totally illogical that you can go from grunt to god in just under a year of game time, right?

The problem for Bioware is that they need to balance authenticity with commercial reality. The danger of having a number of games with a more staggered levelling process is that they run the danger of getting very old and passe very quickly (plus the game engine may be overtaken by technology which is what is happening with NWN and 3D now). For every PnP D&D aficionado who buys the BG series there are a number of non-D&D users as well, and Bioware need to look after their needs. Unless the designers get very creative with the questing, people will get bored of fighting the same kind of mid-level monsters all the time. And with the lead times involved in designing and producing games like BG2, you'd probably be looking at a 5-6 real year timeframe to run the project to completion which just might be a bit too long for it to still be commercially viable.

I agree that the levelling up in BG2 occurred at a very unrealistic rate, however keeping the commercial perspective in mind I don't think that they really could've done it any other way, unfortunately. This is just my opinion, though, and I wouldn't mind hearing some feedback from the rest of the group.

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Memnoch - Custodian of the Order of the Holy Flame

[WOLFGIR]

Yes, i agree that the timeframe is unrealistic and that you progress in a too fast way. In Planescape Torment this is not such a problem due to that the guy you play isimmortal and founds lost knowledge as he ventures and learn things he already kne. He has been as high you can get in all classes..
Well the problem is to mke an AI that will play your advisaries in an inteligent and good way. For example, a couple of orcs fighting in a more organized way, being a bit tougher and has both fighters for close and ranged attacks and some magic/divine support that doesn´t just stand there but uses the environment to full advantage can be more than a match. This is easy to make true in tabletop but harder in CRPG´s..
BG2 gives alot, too much, mission XP´s for insatnace finding a teddybear for a couple of thousands worth of XP´s, (cute but not well good)
In IWD you also gains level quite fst but I got only to level 14 with my fighter in the end of the game.. So I think That IWD spans over a larger period an you progress more, from 1st to alot now.. But it feels like you have accomplished more than in BG2.


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Only the moon should hear my wail..

I agree Mem.. 40th level is totally crazy. It's basically a god..
I remember the old Goldbox games, where you had to really WORK to gain a level, and to gain it, you had to go to town, and enter the training arena to level up, none of that 'bing' click here to level up.

Two things I think would make RPG's better, and get the player involved more are 1.) Bring back the Journal Entries! Having to refer to the book somehow draws you into the game more, maybe because the journal is 'real'... Also, as I said, bring back training halls to level up.

Anyone else think the goldbox games were classics because of the Journal books? I wonder if they did that as a 2nd way for copy protection.. hmm!

Ziroc

[WOLFGIR]

Ziroc, good linkage to the goldbox games, one thing could be to not allow to level up immediatley but first after full nights rest, for HP´s and so, at least for the five first levels, being experience of real life and all that.

Journal, yep true to the bone man!!

Another thing would be to implement the good old Runequest rules, not this level dilemma, but a steday pace of progressing as a character, though you hae to implement more skillbsed playing..

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Only the moon should hear my wail..

[Larry_OHF]

OK...I never had the chance to play PnP when I was younger, and BG 1 was my first real DnD game, and I cannot count the Nintendo stuff that was RPGs, but did not follow any of the DnD rules... that I know of. Anyway, before I found out that the BG series was under condemnation for fast advancement, I only knew what I knew and I was having great fun with it. After getting involved with a local group that plays DnD on PnP, I went to my friend's house to brag that I had won an Elven +3 mail suit. I was happy, but my friend began to chastise me, saying how rare magical items were, and how I could not just win an elven chain mail, and suggested that I no longer play with that group, because they were not playing the real rules. (he also does not beleive in Kits)...anyway, now that I see that BGII and the expansion is under fire for breaking all the rules, I am just more confused...Basically, I still like playing with a char. that can become strong, with the time that I can put into it. I do not have so much time that I can just linger on, and not progress fast. I would basically get squirmy in my seat, waiting for something to happen. I personally think that the old PnP just took too long, and for some of us...for I know that I will probably be the only one to bravely speak up, we just cannot wait around...

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Larry, Sell-Sword to the OHF

[Jerome]

To each their own....

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[SpunkyMoFo]

(OOC)

I think that this is an interesting topic but I have to say that I'm quite happy with the level progression as implemented in BG and BG2. I think that a lot of us play these kinds of games (or any game for that matter) to achieve a certain amount of escapism. Granted being a wizard in a game regardless of level progression is still escapism but if you progress at a rate that is more "realistic" that escapism is somewhat damaged. In real life we do not have the luxury of being 25% better at a task in the span of a week. I'm using the thief analogy here as Tipsy is a rogue and the rogue's skill allocation point system fits in quite nicely. If I start to learn how to play the guitar it is a slow and laborious process. My progress will be slow and at times will certainly feel as if I've regressed in my abilities. Playing the same music, or music of the same difficulty level, will start to become tiresome. What will allow me to continue is the knowledge that with practice I will become better and I will be able to move onto increasingly difficult pieces.

When I play a game I expect to have the level of the challenges rise but I also expect my ability to handle them to rise with them. In BG2, for example, once you first get to Waukeen's Promenade, there's an inn with some rather rude clientele on the second floor. When I first tried to play BG2 I immediately threw down with these folks and repeatedly got me arse handed to me. Several hours, levels and quests later I returned and mopped the floor with them without breaking a sweat. The fact that I could not beat them originally did not prevent me from enjoying the game because I knew that eventually I would be able to come back and destroy them. If they were always too difficult due to a slow level progression it would be somewhat disheartening.

I think that there's also the "wow" factor to consider. Reading about high level spells like "Gate" and "Abi-whomever's Horrid Wilting" and then only being able to sling Magic Missle would be somewhat of a bummer. As it is, I was dissappointed at not being able to learn as many 9th level spells as I wanted to by the end of BG2.

Perhaps the solution is to create a game with a timeframe that seems more expansive so that when you're finished your character is in the twilight of their life having left behind a lifetime of adventures. It would be difficult to incorporate the short-term events like a small battle into an adventure that spans a lifetime but I'm sure that there are folks out there that can pull it off. For now I think I'll just restart BG2 whenever I'm a little bored with Tipsy's power.

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Cheers.

~Tipsy McSwagger
The Drunken Thief
http://suburbanjoe.org

[This message has been edited by SpunkyMoFo (edited 03-28-2001).]

[Black Knight]

I think the main problem here is that this a game BASED on the DnD rules. Not IN them, but BASED on them. There is something to be said about the Level Halls and Journals, but if you are looking for DnD, this isn't it. But if you are looking for something that is based on the rules, but allows you to level up quickly and have the fun of the adventure with years less time, then this is what you are looking for. We are comparing Apples to Oranges here. Does anyone really want to spend the next two years of their life to get to a point where you will be 14 level to finish a game? I don't. If you want more of the DnD experience, try playing Multiplayer with four or five people. Takes you a TON longer cause of the conversations, reloads, etc. This is all, of course just MHO, and I don't want to offend anyone. To each there own. Egads, did I just agree with Jerome? I need to lay down for a minute . . .

BK

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The Black Storm Cloud of the Night
PartTime Bartender of Moon Hope's Inn
Dry Humor Deliverance of the Laughing Hyenas

[Jerome]

Take a deep breath, and again.... dont worry, i think you'll survive, just promise never to do that again!

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