Religion Thread IV

[Larry_OHF]

Yorick: The truth be told, I have been far too busy to keep up with every post made in these debates, but I have read this last page, and I must say...you have an amazing strength of endurance as well as a great amount of knowledge! I try to stay away from debates and stuff ever since you know what happened...but I would be delighted to be a part of something here with you. As you well know, I am what is termed to be Mormon, though we do not like calling ourselves that because it denotes to others that we are not Christians...so we prefer to be called members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I assume you know a great deal about my church...and I wanted to let you know you are free to ask me anything you like, or ask for my aid in whatever you desire. I cannot promise to see your post the moment you post it, due to having a terrible water and oil leak under the house I am working on. I believe I mentioned that before. Anyway, if nothing else, this post is meant to say ,,,"Ra, Ra, Ra"!!! to you.

This thread very much reminds me of the Temple District in BG2. The devoted each seeking to impress the non-believers with their particular strand of religion.

Personally, I am an athiest. If you want to try to convince me otherwise, be my guest. I have had this argument many times before, and am yet to find anyone that can convince me of anything. Christians love to base their arguments on one reference, The Bible (which most have never read more than a couple of chapters), which non-christians simply don't believe in. This makes most discussions futile.

Christianity, in my opinion, is a man-made religion created to fill some blanks that humans as a whole struggle with. How ideal can you get? If you follow their God, you go to a place where everything is good (for eternity). If you do not follow their God (no matter what else happens in your entire life), you will go to Hell (where nothing good will ever happen ever again, which in itself is simply not possible, as everyone's opinion of good and bad differs). I have absolutely no problem with the idea that when I die, I simply exist no more. Christians don't have a problem with the idea that other animals simply cease to exist, but they cannot face the fact that they may not continue on in some form, and therefor cling to a farfetched belief.

I know that someone will be offended by this point of view, but seriously, is there really any difference between me telling Christians that they are wrong, and Christians telling me that I am wrong (and going to go to Hell for it while we're at it).

If anyone wants to continue with this, bring it on. My suggestion is that we try to enjoy what it is that we have in common rather than what we obviously disagree on.

[the sauceman]

Hunter, im going to agree with you on must of your points, you make a very valid arguement about how christians treat others that they dont think, "fit in" with their ideal of what a good person should be...
But i also know that you havent met me yet, you have only had experiences with some hypocritical (idiots) christians who think that their religion revolves around what they think is right, and that isnt true...
they might think theyre right, but the bible tells us that Jesus is right. I was listening to a song recently that states:
theyve finished this race(ism) before they reached the start...
Jesus loves the outcast, he loves the ones the world just loves to hate, and as long as theres a heaven, therell be failure to excommunicate...

kind of interesting how some people cant get it right, and how others, ( and ill admit there dont seem to be enough of these) who understand and dont judge you by your appearance...
just wanted to lay down what i thought.
(but didnt say it very well...)

[AzureWolf]

Originally posted by Aviendha: This thread very much reminds me of the Temple District in BG2. The devoted each seeking to impress the non-believers with their particular strand of religion. Personally, I am an athiest. If you want to try to convince me otherwise, be my guest. I have had this argument many times before, and am yet to find anyone that can convince me of anything. Christians love to base their arguments on one reference, The Bible (which most have never read more than a couple of chapters), which non-christians simply don't believe in. This makes most discussions futile. Christianity, in my opinion, is a man-made religion created to fill some blanks that humans as a whole struggle with. How ideal can you get? If you follow their God, you go to a place where everything is good (for eternity). If you do not follow their God (no matter what else happens in your entire life), you will go to Hell (where nothing good will ever happen ever again, which in itself is simply not possible, as everyone's opinion of good and bad differs). I have absolutely no problem with the idea that when I die, I simply exist no more. Christians don't have a problem with the idea that other animals simply cease to exist, but they cannot face the fact that they may not continue on in some form, and therefor cling to a farfetched belief. I know that someone will be offended by this point of view, but seriously, is there really any difference between me telling Christians that they are wrong, and Christians telling me that I am wrong (and going to go to Hell for it while we're at it). If anyone wants to continue with this, bring it on. My suggestion is that we try to enjoy what it is that we have in common rather than what we obviously disagree on.

*sigh* my kinda girl

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: My 2c about this is that never in my whole life have I run into a more unfriendly bunch than the christians. I am sure not all of them are like this , just the ones that I meet. They always feel the need to tell me that I am going to "burn in hell" because I have a lot of tattoos, bodie piercings, and electric blue hair.

Then you obviously haven't met the many, many Christians with tattoos, body piercings, and blue hair then have you?

There is a group called Christian Surfers. They have "church" on the beach, wearing boardshorts and bikinis.
There have been Christian Metal bands with thousands of Christian followers for decades.
There are most definitely Christians in Punk bands, with the attire you mention. I've recorded some for starters. One of my best songwriting students was a "feral". A beautiful Christian girl with her own unique evolved punkesque fashion style.

What matters with each is not the external, but the internal. The beautiful thing about a happening church is when the conservatives accept the radicals, and the radicals accept the conservatives.

If that isn't happening, don't blame Christ or the ideology. Blame the individuals concerned. Much has to do with where you're from in the world, and the subcultures that predominate.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Aviendha: I have absolutely no problem with the idea that when I die, I simply exist no more.

I have no problem with that idea either. Not all Christians believe in eternal torment you know. There are many of us who believe those who reject God cease to exist. ("Life without God" is a contradiction if God created and sustains all life - in revelation, referring to the lake of fire: "this is the second death" - Jesus comes to offer life, life eternal. What is eternal death? A one off occurance with eternal consequences, or an eternally perpetuating situation)

So you see, You may well be right. After death you may well cease to exist, and many Christians won't disagree with you.

Don't try and tell me what will happen to ME though.

I have ASSURANCE of eternal life with my God. This removes fear of death. Allows me to enjoy this life more, without clinging to it or overpossessing it because it's 'all I've got.'

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: Yorick: The truth be told, I have been far too busy to keep up with every post made in these debates, but I have read this last page, and I must say...you have an amazing strength of endurance as well as a great amount of knowledge! I try to stay away from debates and stuff ever since you know what happened...but I would be delighted to be a part of something here with you. As you well know, I am what is termed to be Mormon, though we do not like calling ourselves that because it denotes to others that we are not Christians...so we prefer to be called members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I assume you know a great deal about my church...and I wanted to let you know you are free to ask me anything you like, or ask for my aid in whatever you desire. I cannot promise to see your post the moment you post it, due to having a terrible water and oil leak under the house I am working on. I believe I mentioned that before. Anyway, if nothing else, this post is meant to say ,,,"Ra, Ra, Ra"!!! to you.

Thanks Larry. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[TheThing]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Aviendha: I have absolutely no problem with the idea that when I die, I simply exist no more.

I have no problem with that idea either. Not all Christians believe in eternal torment you know. There are many of us who believe those who reject God cease to exist. ("Life without God" is a contradiction if God created and sustains all life - in revelation, referring to the lake of fire: "this is the second death" - Jesus comes to offer life, life eternal. What is eternal death? A one off occurance with eternal consequences, or an eternally perpetuating situation)

So you see, You may well be right. After death you may well cease to exist, and many Christians won't disagree with you.

Don't try and tell me what will happen to ME though.

I have ASSURANCE of eternal life with my God. This removes fear of death. Allows me to enjoy this life more, without clinging to it or overpossessing it because it's 'all I've got.'[/QUOTE]I, on the other hand, belive that this life is all I've got. so I live it to the fullest. Does it make a difference that I do NOT have a god while living a fullfilled life?

Don't tell me that one cannot live a fullfilled life without God though... cause I know people who did.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by TheThing: Don't tell me that one cannot live a fullfilled life without God though... cause I know people who did.

Did I say anyone couldn't? No, I spoke for myself. I know what my life would be without God. I know the difference God makes in MY life. That's what I speak of.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Aviendha: Personally, I am an athiest. If you want to try to convince me otherwise, be my guest. I have had this argument many times before, and am yet to find anyone that can convince me of anything. Christians love to base their arguments on one reference, The Bible (which most have never read more than a couple of chapters), which non-christians simply don't believe in. This makes most discussions futile. I know that someone will be offended by this point of view, but seriously, is there really any difference between me telling Christians that they are wrong, and Christians telling me that I am wrong (and going to go to Hell for it while we're at it). If anyone wants to continue with this, bring it on. My suggestion is that we try to enjoy what it is that we have in common rather than what we obviously disagree on.

You make some very good points, Aviendha.

I'll be happy to "accept" your challenge, but I have to admit up front that I'm not going to try to change your views. Nothing I say or do can convince you of God's Holy Nature, only He can do that.

I have a very good friend who is also an atheist and we have had numerous debates on several different religious topics. I've gained a lot of insight from his questions and it has made me a better Christian (I've actually read 4 chapters of the Bible instead of the normal 2 ) Like you, he believes the Bible is nothing more than a book of myths, so any arguments based solely on its passages are pretty much rejected out-of-hand.

I also admired your comments concerning your view of Christianity. They did make me a little defensive at first, but you made an extremely good point by saying THAT is how an atheist feels when we "well-meaning" Christians try to convert you. You're right...we do need to respect EVERYONE, whether they believe as we do or not. Some Christians have a very difficult time accepting the fact that some people simply are NOT interested in God and never will be. While I am always saddened and disappointed to hear that view, I have learned to accept and respect it.

sauceman already addressed the issue raised by The Hunter of Jahanna regarding the intolerance many Christians show towards those that are "different". As he said, these Christians simply are not following the example set by Jesus Christ himself. Social status was a non-factor in determining who He would visit. The Pharisees (The Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwells' of His age) were always chastising Him or condemning Him for keeping company with lepers, prostitutes, and other "unsavory" characters. But Jesus response was simple....there is no social exclusion in Heaven.

We are ALL God's children and He loves each of us EQUALLY and unconditionally. Christians tend to forget this sometimes. As I mentioned in the previous thread, everybody has sin in thier life...including every single Christian walking around right now. There is NO "degree of sin" in God's eyes. One sin is just as "bad" as any other sin, and it is only by His Grace that we receive forgiveness. The front-row Bible thumper doesn't DESERVE God's Grace anymore than a street-corner drug dealer.

Christians should embrace those that are different and throw the church doors open wide to accept them. We need to be a living testimony to God's unconditional love, rather than just acting as mouthpieces.

As The Hunter said, when Christians SAY one thing and DO another, it completely destroys our witness. If WE don't live up to God's standards, how can we expect anybody else to?