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Old 08-22-2001, 04:18 PM   #41
Melusine
Dracolisk
 

Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Age: 43
Posts: 6,541
Quote:
Originally posted by Kaz:
i think im going to take a philosophy course in 11th grade - this is fun!
It is extremely improbable that your friend is immortal, but we cant be SURE. Even if we kill him, there are thousands of other possibilities - he could hav made an illusion, he could have used a double, he could still be alive and laughing his head off at us. And to define the term "immortal" we need the term "mortal". How can we define this if we are not sure what death IS? Or if there even is such a thing as death?
heh....you're right there



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Old 08-22-2001, 04:27 PM   #42
DawnChaser
Zhentarim Guard
 

Join Date: June 4, 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Posts: 340
I would think that the inability to prove or disprove either of these positions (except thru contact from the responsible entities) would leave us in the position of being exactly where we were before pondering this question. So, lacking the ability to make a determination, a directive from the military SOP comes to mind: "In the absence of a contravening directive, continue with the orders in hand."

The only way I could see this affecting the way I live is if it were to be proven (or disproven.) We don't have the tools to make that determination.

"Life goes on!"

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Old 08-22-2001, 04:31 PM   #43
Kaz
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: August 16, 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,891
Life may go on, but isnt thinking about just this kind of thing what seperates us from monkeys? (Does anything seperate us from monkeys? I dont know... maybe theyre just pretending to be unintelligent and are in fact planning to take over the world ... or then again, maybe not... u never know)


THE CONFUSION THEORY
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Old 08-22-2001, 04:36 PM   #44
Kaz
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: August 16, 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,891
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I never said you could know yourself, but that you could know you existed. Descartes "I think, therefore I am." (yes Mel, the old cliche)


sorry i overlooked this

But if you cannot define "I", how can you say "I think, therefore I am"? What is "I" and, as a matter of fact, what is "to be"? If being is dreaming (the theory that we are dreaming all this), then what would we "be" when we are dreaming in the dream? Would this be truer, realer that the world we think of as the "real world" (i dont mean RPGs by this)?


THE CONFUSION THEORY which everyone argues with
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Old 08-22-2001, 04:43 PM   #45
nick1979
Zhentarim Guard
 

Join Date: April 11, 2001
Location: Murfreesboro, TN, USA
Age: 45
Posts: 333
**Steps into his boots because it is getting DEEP in here!***



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Old 08-22-2001, 05:10 PM   #46
Moridin
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally posted by Melusine:
I know I know ...I'm not stupid ...I was just trying to summarise it as short as possible because lazy
But this possibility that our memories are creation rather than reality, I just don't buy it. I KNOW it cannot be disproved in any way, but to me that is not a reason to accept it as possibility. Reasoning and logic can make many things seem possible, but to me they're just words. When I am alone with my thoughts and memories I feel their reality and know for certain that they are real.

BTW An example of these logic/reasoning traps I am talking about (wholly offtopic but there ya go) is one of Aquino's 'infallible' proofs that (a) God exists.
Everything is in movement. Right? Right. Everything that moves, needs to be 'pushed' or moved by something else first, in order for it to move. Right? Right. So, if everything needs something else to move for it to move itself, then what is there at the end of this long chain of domino stones? The Immobile Mover, the centre of the Universe who gave the first push, i.e. God. It's 'infallible' logic but do you believe me?

Ah Mel, never were you considered stupid And you were never asked to believe this theory, I don't and never claimed to. Merely mentioned that it exists. Sheesh!

And for the infallible proof of God's existance...could one not push themselves? This immovable object could be nothing more that a large brick wall...right?



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Old 08-22-2001, 05:26 PM   #47
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally posted by Kaz:
sorry i overlooked this

But if you cannot define "I", how can you say "I think, therefore I am"? What is "I" and, as a matter of fact, what is "to be"? If being is dreaming (the theory that we are dreaming all this), then what would we "be" when we are dreaming in the dream? Would this be truer, realer that the world we think of as the "real world" (i dont mean RPGs by this)?


THE CONFUSION THEORY which everyone argues with
If you dream you are aware. If you hurt you are aware. If one has has one thought, a concious, aware thought, that is proof of existance - even if that existance is purely mental and has no physical entiity. "I" is the awareness capable of thoughts I experience.

Please don't try and tell me you can be aware and not exist. That is a contradiction. You cannot "do" "have" or "feel" anything if you are nothing, and I cannot believe I am writing this! AAAARRRRGGG!



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Old 08-22-2001, 05:29 PM   #48
Ladyzekke
Ironworks Atomic Moderator
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Virginia, U.S.A.
Age: 57
Posts: 9,005
Oh please let it be so! Let me wake up and be 14 again!!! Tis been a long horrid dream!

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Old 08-22-2001, 05:50 PM   #49
Kaz
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: August 16, 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,891
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
If you dream you are aware. If you hurt you are aware. If one has has one thought, a concious, aware thought, that is proof of existance - even if that existance is purely mental and has no physical entiity. "I" is the awareness capable of thoughts I experience.

Please don't try and tell me you can be aware and not exist. That is a contradiction. You cannot "do" "have" or "feel" anything if you are nothing, and I cannot believe I am writing this! AAAARRRRGGG!


Awareness, ok. But to exist, you need to define what you think of as exist. And as it is not clear if this world is being dreamed by a butterfly or not that could prove a bit of a problem. And what IS your awareness or your consciousness? If it is the sum total of your experiences and feelings, someone could, I believe, manipulate you, for (hypothetical) IF this world is being dreamed by a butterfly, that butterfly could dream, for instance, that you experience things that are not part of the "real world", these experiences AND the feelings you have because of them AND the things you did because of these experiences or feelings etc. would ALL have been manipulated. So you cannot be sure if your awareness is even you...wait... I didnt mean it like that... your awareness may have been influenced by other people... ok ill get some sleep im not making too much sense right now see ya after school tomorrow (european time)

THE CONFUSION THEORY

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Old 08-22-2001, 05:58 PM   #50
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Ladyzekke I cannot believe how quickly your sig girl is going through her moves.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!
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