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Old 04-16-2002, 04:35 PM   #31
Sorcerer Alex
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer128:
quote:
Originally posted by MILAMBER:

Please don't confuse a lack of information with a lack of humanity.
Thats my point. 11 september got worldwide media coverage and international support. Those Muslims got a "Sorry, not our fault, go complain to the Serbs". And apparantly, the western media's hardly found it worth mentioning.[/QUOTE]There are many such instances though, Tom. Take Princess Diana's death. I seem to recall Mother Theresa passing away at roughly the same time, and sure enough, I picked up the newspaper the following morning and it was full of Diana (ironically full of praise, while the media always criticized her throughout her lifetime) while Mother Theresa got a measly column or two. The media isn't fair.
 
Old 04-16-2002, 04:49 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
quote:
Originally posted by Rikard_OHF:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
And I forget but wasnt it you lot over there on that side of the globe who have the man who is responsible in a cushy lil prison cell with cable tv and a nice weight room?...cable?? wait I read they were installing satellite tv for him ...my bad.
Don;t you think we should trial this guy?
Or is shooting everybody dead your answer to everything?
[/QUOTE]Yeah actually I DO believe mass murderers should be executed immediatley upon arres. However in this case he has had his trial, and now he lives a far more comfy life than many of those who suffered his atrocities.
[/QUOTE]i totally agree... henry kissinger should be shot in the back of his head and his carcass left to rot and be eaten by vultures.

wait, you we were talking about kissinger right?
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Old 04-16-2002, 04:57 PM   #33
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In the UK we dont have the death penalty - and whats the result? Millions of pounds of taxpayers money (including mine) get spent keeping prisoners in prison - even when its not luxurious is expensive.

Of course, at the same time our schools are getting to be a joke (When i was there - couple year back now - we were using textbooks 20 years old, never enough chem lab equipment (fair enough we did break quite of lot of that [img]smile.gif[/img] etc etc), our health system is (apparently, i havent been in there recently) near collapse and every other week we hear about some child being murdered or abducted.

Im not saying the death penalty should be applied lightly, or that it woudl solve all of these problems, but a couple of million pounds could go a long way under a competent government.

Now, theres another thing we need...
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:03 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by andrewas:
[QB]In the UK we dont have the death penalty - and whats the result? Millions of pounds of taxpayers money (including mine) get spent keeping prisoners in prison - even when its not luxurious is expensive.
QB]
Sure, lets kill every criminal in jail. I think the death penalty is more expensive then keeping someone imprissoned for a long time. Not to mention that only a small number of prisoners commited capital crimes such as murder. Or did you want to kill them all?
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:08 PM   #35
Grojlach
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Quote:
Originally posted by andrewas:
In the UK we dont have the death penalty - and whats the result? Millions of pounds of taxpayers money (including mine) get spent keeping prisoners in prison - even when its not luxurious is expensive.

Why do people keep saying that keeping prisoners in prison is more expensive that executing them? As that's not true. The death penalty costs a lot more of the money of tax payers actually, in order to execute someone in the US enormous amounts of money are spent in lawsuit cases and thorough investigations, and especially several appeals. And that is a whole lot more than food, clothing and "shelter" for that person for the rest of his life.
I've posted the link to the investigation implicating the aboveon this board before in another thread, can't be bothered to search for it now. Probably one of the times the death penalty was discussed on this board.
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:37 PM   #36
Grojlach
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grojlach:

I've posted the link to the investigation implicating the aboveon this board before in another thread, can't be bothered to search for it now. Probably one of the times the death penalty was discussed on this board.
Was bored, looked for it anyways. Read it here.
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:54 PM   #37
Alexander
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
quote:
Originally posted by Rikard_OHF:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
And I forget but wasnt it you lot over there on that side of the globe who have the man who is responsible in a cushy lil prison cell with cable tv and a nice weight room?...cable?? wait I read they were installing satellite tv for him ...my bad.
Don;t you think we should trial this guy?
Or is shooting everybody dead your answer to everything?
[/QUOTE]Yeah actually I DO believe mass murderers should be executed immediatley upon arres. However in this case he has had his trial, and now he lives a far more comfy life than many of those who suffered his atrocities.
[/QUOTE]How backwards and ignorant!

What if you were falsely arrested of mass murder? Or a loved one? Law enforcement isn't perfect - they're all human. Trials are here for a reason - to ensure that the guilty party is truly guilty. If we did away with that, no doubt some unscrupulous people would take advantage of the system and rub out innocent people without trial.

I'm sure it's easy for you to sit there and tell people how the world should be when you have seen so little of it yourself.
[/QUOTE]Wow! You are a liberals liberal [img]smile.gif[/img] dnot even his own lawyer tried to claim he was innocent [img]smile.gif[/img] I think we should set him free and have him live next door to you [img]smile.gif[/img]
[/QUOTE]Did I say he was innocent? No! Please don't misquote me. I think he is guilty as sin, however we need trials even for the most despicable of criminals. Your Gestapo-type situation will just bring misery and oppression.

In addition, am I a "liberal's liberal" for not believing in tactics normally used in fascist and totalitarian states?

[ 04-16-2002, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Alexander ]
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:01 PM   #38
Alexander
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[quote]Originally posted by MagiK:
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MagiK:
[qb]
Quote:
Originally posted by Rikard_OHF:
[qb]
Quote:

.
Quote:
Alexander two things...one ....watch the personal attacks, its not tolerated well on this board, this is a discussion forum and I have the right to my opinion just as Rikard has to his, we are attacking ideas and policy not each other.

Second, obviously you are just chipping in here without having any background on me...at least Rikard has some Idea where Im coming from, I am obviously not basing my whole ideology on one or two conversations, I've lived and learned, I have traveled and experienced to act like I've been living in some back water rural town is falacy. I have been over seas, I have been in combat, I have been on humanitarian missions and I have watched and learned, I read, I educate myself and Ilearn....we use examples because we can't put our whole life time of experience down into one post. So skip the superior BS Ive got more international experience than MOST people. This board only has a handfull of people who have been to as many places and seen as many things as I have...so again, My point of view is as "valid" as any and has a bit more behind it than the average person.
Quote:
Two things.

First, I never attacked you. I said your comments were arrogant. If you take offense to that, that is not my problem.

Second, quite frankly, I don't care where you have been. Yes, I have done all that, too, and I may very well be able to match you place for place. However, if there is one thing I've learned during my journeys, it's that the United States is not the capital of the world. I would think that someone as well-traveled as yourself would realize that Americans have NO RIGHT telling other people how to live their lives, especially when the United States have a lot of questionable policies and attitudes itself. I also realize that everyone has a right to their opinion, and I did not say that you didn't have a right to yours. Please do not turn this into a pissing contest, because I am trying to discuss the topic at hand.
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:13 PM   #39
Alexander
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arledrian:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Thank you. I know I do not have all the answers but I know the wrong answers when I see them [img]smile.gif[/img] sort of like art...I can't define it, but I can usually tell when Im looking at it. [img]smile.gif[/img]
I see what you mean [img]smile.gif[/img]

Alexander, I get the impression that you're too keen to rub your own country's face in the dirt, but the reasons you give aren't adequate to justify your own harsh criticism. I'll admit the laws are somewhat lax with regards to firearms, but I'm sorry, if you feel that is a good enough reason to condemn your own country then I fail to see where you're coming from. Shootings happen all over the world. Take a large country like China or Russia - these countries breathe corruption and I sincerely doubt the crime rate of these two nations is considerably lower than that of the US.[/QUOTE]Who says I condemn my own country? On the contrary, I love my country. I was born here, I have lived here for most of my life, and I shall probably die here. I am proud to be an American.

However, I am not the kind of patriot who will support his country no matter what they do. I am the kind of patriot who seeks ways to improve his country. America will never be perfect, however I would very much like to do my part to make it as close to perfect as possible.

By the way, China has 1/10th the crime rate of the United States. However, I never said we should be more like Russia or China, so comparing the two countries is pointless.

Quote:
And you honestly consider the death penalty a reason to think America a lowly country? Many would argue that this acts as a deterrent where crime is concerned, though I am aware it hasn't quite had the desired effect. If some lunatic walked into your house, shot your family and made a quick getaway, would you rather he was killed or merely put into a (luxurious) prison cell, where he lives out the rest of his days in more comfort than he probably enjoyed before he committed the crime?
It's not a deterrant - violent crime is roughly the same, if not lower, in states (and countries) which don't have the death penalty. Texas, for example, executes more people than any state per year - and their crime rate hasn't dropped one bit. It's still pretty high.

Quote:
America happens to be one of the great forces in the modern world, but I think the arrogance that people seem to assume America has is not entirely justified. However much you despise your own country, you cannot deny the power and influence it has. Of course the US itself knows this and in a way it certainly does have the right to exercise its authority in the right circumstances.
America is a country, just like any other. Might does not make right. Would you rather China tried to govern the world in the same way the US has? The closest thing we have to a world government is the UN - and even they are slanted towards the US and its allies every now and then.

Quote:
You also (rather conveniently) leave out America's plus points. Trust me, on a day-to-day basis, I find life in the States a good deal more enjoyable than I do in my own country. I am not praising America to the skies - it has its faults, as does any country. But as MagiK says, the nation is in a lose/lose situation. If it doesn't step into world affairs, it gets criticized, but if it does step in, as it has been doing lately, it gets people like you on its back.
Hey, I don't object to the United States taking out bin Laden. I just object to the fact that many innocent civilians were killed in the process and we really didn't even try to do anything about it. I object to the fact that the president and his fellow Republicans bash anyone who raises questions about the war in a McCarthyesque way and calls them "unpatriotic". I object to the fact that we didn't seek the UN's approval first. I object to the fact that we're torturing prisoners, and I object to the fact that suddenly, taking out Osama bin Laden is no longer the top priority (probably because we can't find him).
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:46 PM   #40
Chewbacca
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer128:
For those of you that don't know, Srebrenica is comparable with 11 september, only alot more people died. But I guess your value as a person 'is' determined by your nationality, since absolutly no one outside Bosnia or the Netherlands has heard from it. Rather 1000 anonymous muslims dead then one citizen from the west. Its a sad world.
If it makes you feel any better, only some Americans value American lives over a human life. Yes I put it that way, placing value on a human life based on nationality, or the like, is de-humanizing. IMO people who think like that are less than human, and have alot of learning to do. Death is the same whoever you are and where ever your from, it is DEATH.

Anyway, I respect the humility and the sense of responsibility displayed by the Dutch goverment, traits sorely lacking in many of my so-called leaders here in America.
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