Religion II

[Yorick]

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:
One of the things that really soured me on Christianity *in general* (and I know it is the exception rather than the rule) is the notion that once a person accepts Jesus as Saviour, God forgives all your sins being translated as a blanket forgiveness no matter how you act thereafter. I have known and seen people who go through the motions and after their grand revelation of "finding God" (like *He* was the one lost!) shortly after treating others as or more horridly than ever before, commiting 'sins' and maintaining it was all forgiven due to God's Grace!

Maybe I'm not expressing this very well, and I *do* know this is a minority of self-righteous idiots rather than true Christians, but it still gets me riled.

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That Garnet is like a husband repeatedly lying to or cheating on his wife after marriage, then apologising. She may repeatedly unconditionally forgive him, (as Christ does) but what does it do to the relationship?

Christianity is a relationship. The desire to "do the right thing" is so that the relationship is increased, not because any punishment is forthcoming. A Christian that feels they can do whatever sin they like are technically correct, but at an immature stage of walking with Christ.

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

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Originally posted by WOLFGIR:
I will try and get my hands on the bible or if you can find the esxact english phrase it would be fun to see how they have translated it! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I hope this thread gets interesting a one!

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THere are online Bibles. SOme better than others. Try a search, There may be a Swedish one....

[Garnet FalconDance]

Conan, I've been to several churches (can't think of the exact denominations right now--I've been to nearly all of them!) that what you describe (taking the wafer to your seat) is the norm! I remember as a little girl attending the Christian Church with my great grandma (loved those folks!) eveeryone passing the tray of wafers then a tray of tiny little glasses full of Welch's grape juice. I still can't smell Welch's without thinking "communion"!

Oh no! I see Yorick has joined us!

[Garnet FalconDance]

I should say that I do not follow the Christian faith (just for anyone who might not know already) but was brought up within its context.

Of course, my experiences are a microcosm of what is possible....and I did not base my eventual non-belief (in Christianity) on them.

I can remember as a teen going through a rough time (having nothing to do with normal teen angst...this was really serious) and attending church camp as my mother was determined that this would help me clear whatever was wrong. We were not a religious family by any means, but she meant well. So off I went. It *was* a very positive experience even tho it did nothing to solve the situation. I felt I *had* made that connection with God and it seemed a weight was lifted from my shoulders and heart. But my mother spoke to the minister and they determined that I needed a little more instruction/counselling. Ok, no problem. My dad dropped me off at the church and said he'd be back in two hours. I went in, the pastor wasn't there yet so I plunked at the piano (have always wanted to play). He came up behind me and grabbed my breast. I sidestepped away, thinking he had simply meant to hug me and misjudged his action (he had only one arm). No, he reached for me again and I sidestepped. He told me flat out that "the best way you can serve the Lord is to serve His minister". WRONG! I told him in no uncertain terms *exactly* how I felt about *that* (I've never been shy of words) and went outside to wait for nearly the whole two hours. I refused to go again tho he phoned my mother upteen times and only a few years ago told her what happened. I knew what her response would've been back then--that I was making it up for attention or something since a minister of the Faith *never* would act in such a manner!--so I never bothered.

I have never met another such deviant minister in any religion that I know of, but this memory still churns my stomach.

(And don't worry--I have had positive experiences with ministers and with Christians! [img]smile.gif[/img] )

[Epona]

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Originally posted by *\Conan/*:

Ive got one; mybe you guys read this in the past once but I received Communion in a Catholic church. I took the bread in my hand and proceded back to my seat to remember what it meant in my own way. I was stopped in the middle of the isle and forced to eat the waffer in front of the whole assembly. Really embarrasing.. I felt 3ft tall. Instead of quietly telling me my mistake in the ritualism of this Church I was chasened and humiliated. I wonder how many others have been caught up in awkward situations where the measurement of faith is reflected upon the responses of men just as myself.? I hope I am making sense of all this and my point of religion..I think I will stop here for now [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Conan, I find going to church (whichever denomination) for events such as funerals, weddings etc. a complete nightmare - hopefully there will be someone kind who will tell me if I do anything offensive, but I think it is too much to expect everyone to know what to do in each church, whether you are just there for a one-off occassion as an atheist attending a family event, or a different church to your usual.

For what it's worth, perhaps many churches like you to take communion at the altar rail because should any be dropped, according to some denominations, the floor must be dealt with in the proper way - in my Church of England church as a kid (during my brief spell of religious involvement), we had carpet tiles - if the communion wine or wafer were spilled onto it it had to be replaced - I think a stone floor surface would have to be chipped away slightly. I don't know if this is usual though, I don't have much experience with this sort of thing.

One thing that happened to me once, which I was extremely angry about, was at a friends funeral. My friend was agnostic, and would no doubt have been amused at having a Christian funeral - and doubly amused at me (an atheist) being in a chapel for it! When it came to saying prayers, I bent my head out of respect for any Christians present, but not to say prayers myself - well the women next to me chewed me out for not praying audibly, right in the middle of the funeral!!! At least I know my friend would have been laughing had she seen it. I was also too cut-up to sing the hymns, which also earned me another earful from the same woman. This was completely unnecessary and unfeeling IMHO.

[Garnet FalconDance]

Yep, yep, know what you mean, Epona. Hubby and I were invited to one of his co-worker's wedding a couple years ago (geesh, has it been that long?). There we were, a pagan and a witch in a Catholic church attending a wedding Mass. No lightning strikes, nok burning sulphur, I'm happy to report [img]smile.gif[/img] . Budha's family is mostly (non-practicing) Catholics and I know the Book of Common Prayer responses from a bout with the Episicopal church, so we were able to follow most of the responses. We were quite sincere in our responses--the ones we could not in good conscience repeat,we didn't. No one turned and glared when I said "goddess' instead of 'god' or 'her' instead of 'him'. It seemed the important thing (and we agreed whole heartedly) was the celebration of their union.

Same thing with Budha's grandpa's funeral (Catholic) last year. The family knows of my religious beliefs (and accepts them if a little perplexed). I went to the (statue of the) Madonna and had quite a lengthy talk with Her--no one (who knew me, that is) thought it odd.

[Melusine]

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Originally posted by Epona:

One thing that happened to me once, which I was extremely angry about, was at a friends funeral. My friend was agnostic, and would no doubt have been amused at having a Christian funeral - and doubly amused at me (an atheist) being in a chapel for it! When it came to saying prayers, I bent my head out of respect for any Christians present, but not to say prayers myself - well the women next to me chewed me out for not praying audibly, right in the middle of the funeral!!! At least I know my friend would have been laughing had she seen it. I was also too cut-up to sing the hymns, which also earned me another earful from the same woman. This was completely unnecessary and unfeeling IMHO.

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That's so horrible, Epona! How dare she do that on your friend's funeral, that's completely out of bounds! It's one of my pet peeves anyway when people feel the need to criticise others on funerals. I find it completely tactless and almost inhuman. Grief is so personal, and on a funeral I'm willing to accept almost all strange behaviour from mourners, who am I to condemn the way they mourn?
I'm sad that your personal experience with church funerals was so bad, but it doesn't have to be that way [img]smile.gif[/img]
My boyfriend's grandparents both died shortly after one another last year and they were deeply Christian. Of course, the funerals were both held in church. Both ceremonies were truly beautiful and moving, the preaching was VERY well done, very personal and not without humour and warmth, and it was very fitting for both of them. It left me feeling awed and peaceful. So it can be a great thing too [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Epona]

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:
Yep, yep, know what you mean, Epona. Hubby and I were invited to one of his co-worker's wedding a couple years ago (geesh, has it been that long?). There we were, a pagan and a witch in a Catholic church attending a wedding Mass. No lightning strikes, nok burning sulphur, I'm happy to report [img]smile.gif[/img] . Budha's family is mostly (non-practicing) Catholics and I know the Book of Common Prayer responses from a bout with the Episicopal church, so we were able to follow most of the responses. We were quite sincere in our responses--the ones we could not in good conscience repeat,we didn't. No one turned and glared when I said "goddess' instead of 'god' or 'her' instead of 'him'. It seemed the important thing (and we agreed whole heartedly) was the celebration of their union.

Same thing with Budha's grandpa's funeral (Catholic) last year. The family knows of my religious beliefs (and accepts them if a little perplexed). I went to the (statue of the) Madonna and had quite a lengthy talk with Her--no one (who knew me, that is) thought it odd.

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Garnet, glad it's not just me who goes through this! I do actually agonise over it, because I really don't like to be disrespectful for the sake of Christians present, but at the same time I don't want to pray to a deity I don't believe exists. My Uncle's funeral last year was also religious (my Aunt's choice, Uncle was atheist). There were a few people at the gathering, including me (atheist) and my mum, dad and brother (all pagan). When it came to the hymns, none of the Christians opened their mouths, so there was silence, and the 4 of us felt compelled to give it a good belt out just so there was some noise at the appropriate place! So I was mumbling a bit, my bro was confidently inserting 'goddess' in the appropriate places (with a look on his face which clearly said 'well no-one else is singing, so there'd better not be any complaints') and my parents mumbled the same, looking self-conscious about it.

What a fiasco! In all fairness, the only Christian present was my Aunt who was too distressed to sing, but I think given the circumstances it might have been better to play some recorded music or just have an organist or pianist instead - I don't think a single other person there felt comfortable with it.

[Garnet FalconDance]

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Originally posted by Yorick:
That Garnet is like a husband repeatedly lying to or cheating on his wife after marriage, then apologising. She may repeatedly unconditionally forgive him, (as Christ does) but what does it do to the relationship?

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Yorick ]

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Actually, I've been in the above situation--and it quickly destroyed the relationship!

Trust and faith are flipsides of the same coin, in my opinion. Without one, the other cannot exist.

You and Cerek approach this from a Christian view, and I from a pagan one. While we may disagree on what to name 'God' or the exact whereins and wherefores, I suspect that we agree far more than we disagree!

Yikes!! Epona that was a horrible experience...sheesh I have been to a LOT of different churches (lived in 11 different states) of many different denominations and have been fortunate not to have had anything like this happen....sheesh that would definatley turn me off to a religion.

I am catholic by birth but after about 25 years of educating myself and thinking and reflecting I now folllow a modified catholic code. It is taylored to me as an individual and is based on me following the moral values and codesof honor that I picked for myself. The religion I follow is a partnership between me and the almighty, being christian I acknowledge Christ as my savior but feel no need to push my religion or religious beliefs on anyone else.

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: MagiK ]