Deathmatch: F/D dual vs. F/D multi

[Dundee Slaytern]

I would like to comment on the issue of STR.

To put it bluntly, for any character that is not a full-time tank( like a Paladin for example), having more than 15 STR on HoF mode is almost completely a waste of time.

Nice to have, but not essential.

More damage? The HP of the enemies on HoF mode are so ludicrous that the benefits of additional damage is neligible. Let your Druid do what Druids do best, which is spellcasting.

15 STR is the ideal number to aim for a Fighter/Druid, if you still want to powergame without sacrificing hours rolling for eternity.

The following is my personal statroll for a F/D. Take it with a pinch of salt.

STR: 15
DEX: 18 (for slinging and AC)
CON: Minimum
WIS: 18 (for more spellslots)
INT: Minimum
CHA: 18 (since the base is so high)

Far more attainable, and still very strong, if a bit dumb.

[Aerich]

I've got no issue with the Str, Dex, Int, and Wis numbers. I do the same. No need for the 18 Cha, since a pally will already have that. Alternately, a 15 Cha bard or mage with the spell Friends can get the max price reduction at shops - I've been told (on another board) that you don't get any reduction for Cha higher than 20. I also like to have the Con as high as I can get it. Maybe 18 isn't always possible, but a 16 gives you a little extra edge.

@ Klorox - I can confirm that a shapechanged druid or F/D does not get a Thaco penalty for nonproficiency with "natural" weapons. The base Thaco is the character's base thaco. Modifications for strength and spells do apply.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Personally, I find high CON for non-tankers to be a luxury on HoF mode. On HoF mode, the damage dealt by the enemies is so high, that the additional HP gained by CON is minimal. Nice to have, but not really essential. Unless you are playing a Dwarf who can attain 19 CON, then the difference is considerable.

[Klorox]

Dundee, if your Druid will be slinging stones while not casting, STR is very important.

[Aerich]

Well, the high Con is really just for sticky situations. Generally speaking I agree with you; good positioning and overall tactics are far, far, far superior to brute strength and durability, because even weakling monsters can out-brute a party on HoF.

Luxury? Yes, but a few extra HP can have a ripple effect on the party's actions. An extra 15-20 HP may be the difference between casting a healing spell and casting an offensive spell.

[Aerich]

Originally posted by Klorox: Dundee, if your Druid will be slinging stones while not casting, STR is very important.

But if your druid will only sling stones 20% of the time, it's not so important that you need to spend an extra hour getting the perfect stat roll.

Even a high Str mc druid will have trouble doing more damage slinging than casting. More importantly, the secondary effects of so many druid spells makes enemies easy(-ier) meat for the rest of the party.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Furthermore... as I have already mentioned in an earlier post in this thread. Most good Druid spells take up a turn to cast. This leaves zilch slinging time.

I bought 120 Bullets +2 in the Severed Hand. I had a 100+ Bullets when I completed the Severed Hand. That's how little my Druid slings on HoF mode.

My Mage slings more than my Druid even though he has a laughable 1 ApR, because he has less spells to cast( due to the lack of scrolls), and most of his spells have a casting time of less than 5.

STR higher than 15 only really matters if it affects your main form of attack, like a melee Paladin. Anything else is a luxury.

[Aerich]

It's kind of funny that a non-HoF game arguably has more use for a high Str F/D. With less XP, the druid spends more time slinging because it has less spell slots. In non-HoF you also don't need a druid's constant spell "support" to take out monsters.

[ZFR]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: I would like to comment on the issue of STR. To put it bluntly, for any character that is not a full-time tank( like a Paladin for example), having more than 15 STR on HoF mode is almost completely a waste of time.

Just one small addition. If you lower your strength, remember that if you go lower than that (15), you will not be able to use Composite Long Bows. Of course whether using CLBs is very necessary or not is a different subject, and it's definately of no concern for druids, but still keep this restriction in mind.

[Roboghost]

STR...hmmm...

Lots of good points, but for those that vote for a 15 for druid strength:
At least get it to 16 for a +1 Damage with the 'ol sling -- especially if dropping the INT down to 6 or less [I don't like to lose those 10 lore points when the INT goes below 7...not that you need them, but it's a rollplaying thing for me. Of course, my bard is my CHA champ (18)!] 16 STR gives more carrying weight as well -- my F/D will be at 98 pounds of gear sometime during my castle exploration {hee, hee, hee}...well...my STR will be at 19 at this time too if I follow through on my item plan [I pick my "random" items - reward for my troubles - thank you very much.]

I see HoF as building characters that need every advantage they can get -- sure the beasts have high hitpoints, but I've had my butt saved just-in-the-nick-of-time by that one last rock. You're at the end of battle and your spells are down to zip and your fighters are near death. That last sling stone could save you or (see below) move the fighters out and let the healthy F/D step in to finish the fight.

Strategy [example only -- you all probably can beat me, but this is only an exercise]:
My party previously mentioned (slightly modified due to items and better WIS for my front F/C):

1st} Gnome Fighter 18/00 18 18 10 10 10 {18/00...strange for this guy}
1st} Dwarf Fighter/Cleric (G) 18/00 17 19 9 18 8
2nd} Half-Elf Ranger/Cleric* (G) 18/00 18 18 10 18 10
2nd} Half-Elf Fighter/Druid 18/81 18 18 7 18 15
3rd} Elf Mage/Thief 18 19 16 18 10 10
3rd} Half-Elf Bard 14 18 16 18 13 18
*an easy character to roll for -- so an 18/00 is a synch.

Say the 1st rank is about dead and your 2nd rank is just about out of spells. Now, simply move the 2nd rank to the front and the 1st rank can go missile [not to mention the F/C should have some spells to use to keep the 2nd rank going to finish the fight (buffs and heals).] Notice that the 1st rank is resistant to magic {a Paladin is an easy replacement for the Dwarf F/C - and a good one -, but just want to do the Dwarf for a change.) Also, since I don't have a dedicated archer, I'll need that pure fighter to be a rockin' axe tosser until the time is right to jump into the melee.

Edited: My final roll numbers - 18/00s' "fairly easy" for the fighter and C/R (due to C/R's many stats already bumped-up minimums.) My F/C was a "miracle".

[ 04-19-2006, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Roboghost ]