The russian children

[Dron_Cah]

Wow, Hiero. For a second there, I thought you just said that a/all human life wasn't important. But, I'm sure I just misread your post.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Knightscape: No, I look at this in a long term sense. A means to an end is a short sighted point of view, it doesn't take into account the long term ramifications of the action. Did the terrorists deliver a stinging blow to the Russian people? Most certainly. Did they achieve autonomy? No, and now that the Russian government and people have been backed into a corner, they are less likely to achieve their autonomy. All the terrorists did was to set themselves up for some harse reprisals. If the means to an end was meant for the terrorist to be hunted or killed they acieved their goal, otherwise the short-sightedness of these individuals has condemed themselves and their cause.

The Russian people are nothing! The Chechnyan people are nothing! Social identity is a thin coat of paint peeling in the summer sun. Dominate a people, control their minds, erase and rebuild their so-called 'history', and so shall you change their names and faces. But despite the constant evolution of popular identity, the will to power remains constant. The need to endure, to dominate, and to conquer, is what holds the strands of life together. Our discussion in this very thread is evidence of this.

[Dadams1]

And, not to derail the discussion, but as a side note... Acting on total subjective morality doesn't work if one wishes to preserve society. Think about it a bit more, I'm fairly sure you'll see why I say that. As such, attempting to excuse atrocities based on that argument doesn't work unless you're also willing to excuse anything and everything else.

Of course. But humans receive society's morality; they rarely develop their own basic moral functions. There is a good reason; without society impressing its morals on everyone, society would not exist. But that's not the point. The point is, morality is still relative, it just doesn't work in coersion with society.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Dron_Cah: Wow, Hiero. For a second there, I thought you just said that a/all human life wasn't important. But, I'm sure I just misread your post.

It's as important as your morality says it is.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by DBear: The Chechnyan terrorists are Muslims, and that is standard Muslim terrorist procedure. [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img] I hope Vlad knows what to do about it :nuke:

DBear, you're going to be in the sin bin for a couple of weeks mate. We're all united in condemning this tragedy perpetrated by a bunch of terrorist scumbags, but your continued comments about and vilification of Muslims are not only discriminatory and against our ToS, they also violate our moratorium on religion. I understand your emotion, but you're going to have to learn some self-control and keep your prejudices to yourself. It's not the fault of the worldwide Muslim community that these terrorists happened to be Muslims - to characterise an entire group of people based on the actions of a minority is the same characterisation that these terrorists are doing when they blow up innocent people because of what they think other people are doing to them.

You can't say you weren't warned. At least you didn't call them ragheads this time, but comments of the type you're making are not acceptable here - have a think about it during your two weeks off.

[ 09-08-2004, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Encard: Hierophant, if a means to an end were all that mattered, we'd likely all be dead. A means to an end can include such great things as nuclear genocide, and that's not good for anyone. Particularly when whoever you attacked striked back. And then of course both sides' allies, and so on. If all that mattered were winning the fight of the moment, the end result would be failure for everyone. Not to mention, the hostage-takers were incompetent anyway. All they've gotten themselves now is a great deal of animosity from the rest of the world. Congratulations, now the country will be free! Hmm... No, somehow I doubt it. And, not to derail the discussion, but as a side note... Acting on total subjective morality doesn't work if one wishes to preserve society. Think about it a bit more, I'm fairly sure you'll see why I say that. As such, attempting to excuse atrocities based on that argument doesn't work unless you're also willing to excuse anything and everything else. EDIT: Oh, and DBear... yeah, terrorists are bad. But so is killing random people in a huge explosion that's not likely to bring much benefit, and so is nuclear fallout.

Ah, nice words, it's just a pity that you completely misunderstand me.

Means to an end is again a subjective concept. The people that died at that school are not the important matter (in my eyes), neither is the hostage-taker's 'cause', nor the political or military reaction of their supposed opponents in the 'Russian' government. What matters is the expression of power, the primal display of conflict, and the method of its psychological justification. What strikes my eye is the exertion of dominance, and the way in which a group collectively validates its wrath through its conventional morality. Russian, Chechnyan, Kazak, American, Muslim, Christian, Capitalist, Communist.... they are all definitions of varying psychological blueprints. How do these blueprints interact? That's what I observe.

The ideology of identity. How does it work? Emotions certainly come into play, but these in turn are governed by one's chosen, and trained identity.

Society is preserved when servants and masters recognise who and what they are, and relegate themselves into their subsequent positions in their social hierarchies. The will to power is, and always has been, the binding force of life itself. Morality, subjective as it is, wraps itself around this principle, varying from person to person, time to time, place to place.

But that's just my subjective opinion [/QUOTE]Mate, if I didn't know you better I'd say you were either stirring or sociopathic. Heiro's world - the oppressors and the oppressed.

[ 09-08-2004, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Dron_Cah]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Dron_Cah: Wow, Hiero. For a second there, I thought you just said that a/all human life wasn't important. But, I'm sure I just misread your post.

It's as important as your morality says it is. [/QUOTE]Well, let's hope that most people have higher/differnt moral standards than that of terrorists, like this, eh?

[Avatar]

I think there are extremists in every society. But not every society is in as much turmoil as theirs.

Its WRONG to do that but we can't apply our morality and logic to all.

Simply pointless

[Knightscape]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Hierophant:
"The Russian people are nothing! The Chechnyan people are nothing!"

The Russian people exist. The Chechnyan people exist. The killing of Russian children by Chechnyan terrorist did occur. To deny this is to deny reality.

"Social identity is a thin coat of paint peeling in the summer sun."

Just a little over the top. [img]smile.gif[/img]

"Dominate a people, control their minds, erase and rebuild their so-called
'history', and so shall you change their names and faces."

Names are easy to change, faces stay the same. As for controlling their minds, it is much easier said than done.

"But despite the constant evolution of popular identity, the will to power
remains constant."

As does the never ending desire to just live in peace.

"The need to endure, to dominate, and to conquer, is what holds the strands
of life together. Our discussion in this very thread is evidence of this."

The evidence of this thread would seem to contradict this. It has been a free exchange of ideas. There has been no 'either agree with me or else'. What holds the strands of life together is language, expression, and knowledge. Without these 'a means to an end' would truely become the reality.

[Knightscape]

Originally posted by Avatar: I think there are extremists in every society. But not every society is in as much turmoil as theirs. Its WRONG to do that but we can't apply our morality and logic to all. Simply pointless

An extremist in one society is a moderate in another. Societies in turmoil tend to be there because the extremist views became exceptable.

What can we use to guide us if not our morality and logic?