Skill gain

[Calagari]

This leaves me confused. On the rare occasion when I level up to get a point in skills why am I not allowed to add to my desired proficiency? Instead I am given a choice to only give my one point to a weapon choice I may not want. My mage/thief has 2 in bow and one in daggers. I am not allowed to add to the dagger or bow. instead I have to give the point to a completely new skill, one I am not interested in. It would seem to me if I have earned the skill point I should be able to allot that point where I choose. What else is the sense in levelling up except to better yourself at your desired skills?
The better the thief the more capable in the weapon of choice, not branch out in a totally new area of weaponry. Having low hit points is bad enough. Keeping a good distance between you and your opponent is what the bow skill is all about. What good would Robin Hood be if he was a 3rd rate bowsmen?
An assassin I can understand the need to master many weapons. But characters should be able to master one skill before they move on to another.

Just one persons thoughts.

[J'aran]

Only single-class fighters can get up to five points in any weapon skill (three for bow, crossbow and other ranged weapons). Paladins, rangers and multi-class fighters can get up to two points in any weapon skill (rangers can get three in bow, not sure about paladin) and all the other classes (mage, thief, cleric and druid) can get only one point in weapon skills.

Simply put, this reflects the fact that, quite logically, a person who dedicates all his time learning the use of weapons (read: a fighter) will gain a lot more skill at this than someone who has other things to learn, like a thief picking locks etc. Robin Hood was a 1st rate bowman simply because he practiced archery a lot and wasn't distracted by the need to learn how to cast lightning bolt.

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by Calagari: This leaves me confused. On the rare occasion when I level up to get a point in skills why am I not allowed to add to my desired proficiency? ... It would seem to me if I have earned the skill point I should be able to allot that point where I choose. What else is the sense in levelling up except to better yourself at your desired skills? ... characters should be able to master one skill before they move on to another.

I sense... I sense... Ah, yes... I sense the presence of yet another disciple, beginning the journey toward the Dark side: DC Fighter characters...

Calagari,

You are attempting to stack Proficiency Points (PP) in a skill. J'aran is right: No one other than a "Single Class" [a.k.a. "Straight Class"] Fighter can stack above 2 PP high in a skill; and some clases can only stack 1 high. But J'aran's answer does not spell out all the options available to someone who doesn't yet know how to ask the question in the right manner. Let me try...

You want to stack as high as you want in a weapon skill. The game will not let you do that. The closest it comes to the ideal is for a Single Class (SC) Fighter, which gets to stack 5 PP high in melee weapons and 3 PP high in ranged weapons.

Furthermore, you want to be able to stack as high as you want in a weapon skill for a non-warrior. What you are really trying to achieve is a character that has a non-warrior skill set (Thieving, spell casting, etc.) and some of the warrior's ability with weapons, right? Oops. Now you are REALLY at odds with the philosophy behind 2nd edition D&D rules (which is what IWD faithfully implements). Folks that do not dedicate themselves to warrior ways suffer huge setbacks with hand weapons: Much lower rates of PP acquisition -AND- severe limitations on their ability to stack them.

So, is there a way around these limitations?

Some would suggest Multi-class (MC) characters. These must be NON-humans, who simultaneously progress in several (2 or 3) classes. They have their place (I usually have ONE of these guys in a party); and mixes including Mage, Thief and/or Cleric can make excellent support characters. However, they have several limitations, including a very major limitation for the Fighter MC: you can only stack PP 2 high! That, my friend, is -*-THE-*- reason I do not MC Fighters. (Nor does it appear that MC will satisfactorily answer YOUR desire of wanting to stack over 2 PP high, does it?) As if that were not bad enough, MC characters do not benefit from the IWD option button to get "max HP per level." Nuff said on MC. Let's move on...

Some (like me!) would suggest Dual Class (DC) characters. Here is a complete list of the DISadvantages of DC characters:
1.) They MUST be HUMAN.
2.) They only are allowed to advance in ONE class at any given time.
3.) They are only allowed to change the class they will advance in EXACTLY once.
4.) They must be rolled to have at least the minimum in the prime requisites for the class they start with, and they must also have the minimum + 2 points in each of the prime requisites for the class to which they will DC. There are also alignment requirements for the Druid. So, you must plan out your DC path and make sure you have met all requirements for it AT CHARACTER GENERATION.
6.) When advancing in the second class, all skills gained in the first class are inaccessable (temporarily lost) until advancement in the second class reaches 1 clvl higher than the last clvl attained in the first class.
7.) Even after abilities in the first class are regained, weapon, armor and skill restrictions still apply (in mitigated ways), so must be planned for. (Examples: A DC Fighter/Mage can wear the heaviest of armor, but cannot cast spells unless wearing armor that a SC Mage could wear; A DC Fighter/Cleric is restricted to blunt weapons [just like the SC Cleric], so any PP put in cutting weapons or bow by the Fighter will eventually become useless.)

So, why put up with all these restrictions to go DC? Because, my disillusioned friend, if you plan well and have patience, it gives you something even better than what you were seeking: You get a character that has all the HP and all or most of the other benefits of a SC Fighter (e.g., PP stacking) and all the benefits of the DC character's other class. And notice I have used to word "Fighter" a lot. Virtually all my DCs have been Fighter mixes, to get the weapon skill advantage; and, furthermore, start as Fighters to maximize the character's HP.

Let's look at some examples of non-DC characters and how to spruce them up with DC. (All XP and non-Fighter HP numbers are made up, but are more than accurate enough to illustrate my point. For simplicity, and because I don't have access to the IWD expo tables, lets assume that all classes advance at the same rate [they don't] according to the following XP table

clvl . . XP
. 1 . _____0
. 2 . __1,000
. 3 . __3,000
. 4 . __7,000
. 5 . _13,000
. 6 . _25,000
. 7 . _50,000
. 8 . _90,000
. 9 . 160,000
.10 . 250,000
.11 . 350,000
.12 . 500,000
.13 . 750,000
.14 . 1,000,000

By the end of IWD (normal difficulty, no expansions) you will get about 500,000 to 1,000,000 XP per character in a 6 person party, depending on how you game, so you should expect your SC characters to attain clvl 13, and your MC characters to get to about [11]/[11].

A tale of 2 Mages: Let's look at Sally Single Class and Deb Dual Class.

Sally is a normal SC Mage build; and at 30,000 XP she would be clvl 6. With max CON, she would have about (2+2)*6 = 24 HP. AC is about 8. She would have, say, 1 PP in dagger and 1 PP in missile weapons; and access to her repetiore of spells.

Deb takes the DC path. starting out as a SC Fighter (IWD doesn't know your character is destined to be DC until you actually DC), she gets 2 PP in, say, LongSword, and 2 more in, say Bow. 2 levels later she gets another PP which she stacks in Bow. Max CON gives her 42 HP. She DCs to level 1 Mage at 3,000 XP, immediately after making it to Fighter[3]. 7,000 XP later she makes it to Fighter[3]/Mage[4] and regains Fighter skills. At 30,000 XP she has, like her sister, made it to Mage[6] (actually Fighter[3]/Mage[6]). Unlike Sally, though, Deb has 42 + 4 = 60 HP, can wear the best of armor (but not cast magic in it), wield a sword (vice a dagger) as well as the best Cleric or Pally, and shoot longbow (vice darts) BETTER than anyone else in the party with the possible exception of Ranger and SC Fighter!

By the time you get 30,000 expo for each character, your party should be near the start of DE. This is what I consider the dividing line between the early and mid-game. Deb's extra HP will come in very handy in DE. If a monster hops the front line, Deb can don shield, helmet and armor to get AC down to, say, 3. A Fighter's AC, coupled with her extra HP, will make her MUCH more survivable than Sally for the entire rest of the game; and the vast bulk of game play is still ahead of you.

Want to make Deb more awesome in comparison to Sally? Hold her DC until Fighter[6] --> By the time Sally attains Mage[8], Deb will be only one Mage level behind, at Fighter[6]/Mage[7]. She will have about 6*14 + 1*4 = 88 HP (compared to Sally's 28 HP); 3 PP in LongSword, 3 PP in Bow, 1 PP in dagger, 1 PP in darts, the option to have a MUCH better AC if the situation calls for it, and one, maybe two, spell slots less than Sally. By the end of DE (still in the mid-game), there will be no noticeable difference between Deb and Sally's available Mage slots; but there will be a huge difference in their warrior skills --> while Sally is feeing for her life, Deb will be muscling the Ranger and Cleric aside to get her very own piece of Troll. Deb is tantamount to a full-fledged Fighter: a better warrior than a Cleric, when called to perform that duty. All this is possible because DC allows you, Calagari, to do what you think you should have been able to do in the first place: stack PP. In addition (the bonus), you acquire PP much, MUCH faster than your non-warrior class would: A level 3 Fighter gets more PP than a SC Mage will get in the entire game! And she can stack them!! YEEE HAH!!! The only catch is that you need to do all your stacking in the Fighter phase.

If you intend to adventure to How (and possibly TotLM), where DC levels of [13]/[17] are EASILY attainable, then DCs at F[7], F[9], F[12] and even F[13] can pay off handsomely. A Battle Mage (using F[12] or F[13] stock) is just as good as a SC Fighter ALL the time, and can be configured to temporarily be a MUCH BETTER Tank/Fighter. (Think of a your best Fighter wading into battle protected by Blur, Mirror Image -AND- StoneSkin: Hang it up Mr. Ogre, you are about to become kibbles and bits!)

Your Thief can be spruced up in like manner, if you can stand the pain of doing without a Thief until you hit F[6] or F[7]. I would expect that a DC Fighter[7]/Thief[8], CON=18, with 3 PP in Bow (Long Bow, not short, like Thieves are usually restricted to) and 3 PP in LongSword could fight and survive better than an MC Fighter[11]/Thief[11], CON=18, 2 PP in longBow and 2 PP in LongSword. They would have about the same HP (if you are using "max HP per level" feature), and the DC build has an extra 1/2 ApR with each weapon.

The DC Fighter[9]/Cleric is another awesome combo: Oodles of HP, 5 PP in mace and 2 PP in sling. In addition to other benefits, IIRC, this character gets 2 (TWO!) additional attacks per Round (ApR) over a SC Cleric, using mace; and an extra 1/2 Apr using Sling.

Hope this helps.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 10-21-2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[jmsteven]

How can a mage/thief have 2 proficiencies in bows? I thought only warrior classes get that.

[NobleNick]

jmsteven,

You are correct. A Mage or Thief only gets to stack 1 PP high. So a MC or DC Thief/Mage can only stack 1 PP high in bow (and is restricted to short bow, I believe).

All the mixes that I examined were Fighter mixes:

MC Fighter/Anything ---> Stack up to 2 high in anything.

DC Fighter/Anything ---> Stack up to 5 high in melee and 3 high in ranged, during Fighter phase, only. Thief and Mage phase: Stack 1 high in anything. Ranger phase: Stack 2 high in anything. Druid and Cleric phase: I forget if it is 1 or 2 PP; but suspect it is 2 high in blunt weapons and sling, only.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 10-20-2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Roboghost]

Ranger:
I doubt they get more than two (2) PP in Bow [too bad] -- so choose the Elf to get that +1 THAC0 for his/her bow plus another +1 THAC0 for the 19 DEX.

Mage/Thief:
Maximum of one (1) PP and thief weapons only.

I'm doing the real thief challenge right now: a Cleric/Thief. That only leaves the Club or Staff for Cripple Strike!

The biggest problem I have with these types of thieves is that they only get ONE slot open for a weapon. That means no script to swap out between "rockets" (range) and "going to guns" (melee.)

It's most irritating with the "jack-of-most-trades", the Cleric/Thief.

Here is why I'm going with this character:

Human Paladin
Dwarf Fighter
Human Fighter (13)/Druid
Human Fighter (13)/Mage
Half-Elf Bard
Gnome Cleric/Thief

The Gnome serves as my ONLY cleric while I wait for the Druid to kick in. The Bard comes along later with the "cleric-like" powers they get with that final song at Level 11 plus long lasting mage-duty spells [Strength and Cat's Grace] while I wait for the Mage to kick in.

This has been a challenge {Insane mode} thus far. The Bards' special summons has been the key to surviving until can get those DCs 2nd classes to chip in (I maxed their missile/bow first to help out early on.) Enough ramble.

[Calagari]

I deleted the quote in this reply to say space. I made my level 9 Mage a mage/Fighter. He is now up to level 5 fighter. I saved this change in a seperate savegame file as Test. I am in severed hand and was/am concerned that maybe this is not the right time to try this dual classing. Just yet I have not seen his HP change from the 54 hp had as a Mage. But he has not died yet either. He has a bow and the thiefs armor. The Mage/thief and he just changed items. I can't wait to see how he plays out when he hits level 9 fighter. I am close to finishing Severed hand. I just have the lab parts to put in place then I should be out of there.

You are just chock full of good advice and experience.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by NobleNick:

[NobleNick]

I deleted the quote in this reply to say space.

Oh, yes, PUH-LEEZ. I often have long posts, but that last one would make a book worm beg for mercy.

I made my level 9 Mage a mage/Fighter. He is now up to level 5 fighter.... Just yet I have not seen his HP change from the 54 hp had as a Mage. But he has not died yet either.

Oops. I made two mistakes: First, I perhaps didn't make it clear enough that you want to START as a Fighter, to maximize your HP. Also, you wanted a tough Mage, right? Well what you are going to get is a tough Fighter who can cast a few spells; because once you DC out of Mage, he will never gain another spell slot. Again, the answer is to start as Fighter, then when the desired level of toughness/skill is reached, DC to your main class. Second mistake (which I just went back and edited out of my last post): IIRC, your DC character does not gain HP in the new class until he passes the level of the class he DCed out of. Sorry, forgot that one.

The real lesson to be learned, here; is that you should plan out your DC characters at the time you roll them. The game you are playing now will give you the experience you need to do good planning next time.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[Calagari]

That's why I saved it all as a test savegame file. I have cleared the hand now and the last few levels can be redone without a problem. It was just an experiment to start with. I am not diisappointed with what I have done. I will go back to the save game before I DC'd the mage and keep him pure.

What I learned from this is to next time I start a new party to make more single class members and Dc them later along the game. The benefits seem better. I also learned that I could survive without his spell help. It was a bit more difficult but was possible.

Now let me ask you about my human pally. I am not real pleased with her as it is. She is level 8 now so the time to DC her is coming up. I don't have a bard or druid in this party.

Originally posted by NobleNick: I deleted the quote in this reply to say space. Oh, yes, PUH-LEEZ. I often have long posts, but that last one would make a book worm beg for mercy. I made my level 9 Mage a mage/Fighter. He is now up to level 5 fighter.... Just yet I have not seen his HP change from the 54 hp had as a Mage. But he has not died yet either. Oops. I made two mistakes: First, I perhaps didn't make it clear enough that you want to START as a Fighter, to maximize your HP. Also, you wanted a tough Mage, right? Well what you are going to get is a tough Fighter who can cast a few spells; because once you DC out of Mage, he will never gain another spell slot. Again, the answer is to start as Fighter, then when the desired level of toughness/skill is reached, DC to your main class. Second mistake (which I just went back and edited out of my last post): IIRC, your DC character does not gain HP in the new class until he passes the level of the class he DCed out of. Sorry, forgot that one. The real lesson to be learned, here; is that you should plan out your DC characters at the time you roll them. The game you are playing now will give you the experience you need to do good planning next time. -------------------- What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!!

[NobleNick]

Calagari,

A true gamer's spirit, you have. Experimenting is fun. Making mistakes is fun. Getting it right is fun. It all adds up to more game play!

Bad news: You can not DC a Pally.

Good news: If your Pally is specializing in LongSword, then you won't mind.

Yes, I was dissatisfied with my Pally in the early game. But I took the advice of wiser heads and kept him. He slowly gets better in the mid game, and then gets an absolutely kick-assassin weapon in the late game.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!