On patriotism

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by MagiK: Well said DM. I especially agree with your point on NOT believing everything that is in the press, every "news" organization these days has ulterior motives and affiliations and they allow it to affect their reporting...Wish they had kept to just reporting the news...not spinning it.

Unfortunately for us, other countries do the same thing and "spin" away so much of the truth that many countries think we're ogres.

------------------
"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

"I'm INVINCIBLE! ... You're a LOONEY!"

Dare to dream. Be bold enough to try.

The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Originally posted by DragonMage: Unfortunately for us, other countries do the same thing and "spin" away so much of the truth that many countries think we're ogres.

And yet millions of them STILL try to get here. I think in general most people realize this is the greatest place on earth to live (with the possible exception of select scandinavian countries and New Zealand) You don't make the news if you only have nothing but warm fuzzies for the USA.

But yes Disinformation and the Spin of the press (especially those that are puppets of the rulers) does seem to incite hate and discontent about us



------------------
Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

You know for a time I was in a position to screen all news stories sent in by the AP and UPI services BEFORE they got to the editing rooms. It astounded me how twisted some of the stories got. It made me unable to trust any news agency. Didn't seem to matter which country was reporting the issue you still only got about 1/3 of the story IF you heard about it at all that is.

------------------
Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[MILAMBER]

Originally posted by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon: You are fairly correct with your translation, Absynthe, but that portion you translated needs some sort of interpretation as it is not quite as nationalistic as it sounds at first: From the German grammar one can easily see that "all" here means "everything" and NOT "everybody". (in which case it would have to be "allen" instead of "alles"). And the meaning of "everything" in this context explains itself from the German and European history of the 19th century (the lyrics of the anthem were written in the 1840s by Hugo von Hofmannsthal, an Austrian btw): the 19th century in Europe has been labelled the "era of nationalism" as all the peoples and ethnic groups who had not yet established their own nation states strived for doing exactly that. The two most prominent cases of such "belated" nations were Italy and Germany which up to 1859 and 1871 respectively were still made up of many independent principalities (which in the case of Italy were furthermore mostly governed by foreign dynasties like Austria-Hungary). So "Germany above everything" means that every good German patriot should strive first and foremost for the unification of all of Germany in one independent nation state. A very interesting thread indeed, Kaz, but I beg to differ: I think that the reserved attitude of Germans towards patriotic symbols like anthems and flags is inevitable considering our history and the way those symbols and patriotic feelings in general were abused. And it might be a very German way of thinking - as a result of what I just mentioned - but I can simply not help it: anything related to patriotism anywhere in any country makes me first think of the dangers of patriotic feelings and of how narrow the line between healthy patriotism and dangerous nationalism ALWAYS is and has been instead of the positive energies for selfless and benevolent deeds it might help to mobilize. And I also think that even positive and non-presumptuous patriotic feelings are always very prone to be manipulated and abused. Like I said: my general skepticism towards the virtues of patriotism might very well be something very German and just a result of our national history and thus "unbalanced" ... Thanks for bearing me out !

Ramon, I know what you're saying, but I disagree. You can avoid patriotism because you are afraid it will be exploited, but I would argue that's the wrong reason to do so. Any virtue can be exploited. Be it honesty, loyalty, patriotism... You can't avoid them all because you are afraid you will open yourself up by doing so.


------------------
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
-General George Patton (1885-1945)

Member of CLAN HADB

[Sir Kenyth]

Originally posted by MILAMBER: Ramon, I know what you're saying, but I disagree. You can avoid patriotism because you are afraid it will be exploited, but I would argue that's the wrong reason to do so. Any virtue can be exploited. Be it honesty, loyalty, patriotism... You can't avoid them all because you are afraid you will open yourself up by doing so.

Well said!

[Kaz]

Just to clear things up (AGAIN) by "overly patriotic and proud" I meant "very patriotic and proud" as in more than in most European countries. I muct've gotten the two words confused. American patriotism seems very intimidating to me, as I am no longer used to any kind of patriotism. Better now? Everyone happy?

------------------


Kazara

Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe

[skywalker]

Originally posted by skywalker: Oh say can you see By the dawns early light What so proudly we hailed At the twilights last gleaming And the rockets red glare The bombs bursting in air Gave proof through the night That our flag was still there Oh say does that star spangled banner yet wave For the land of the free And the home of the brave Is this right? I hope so, or I'll be very embarrassed. Mark

Ouch! Looks like I left out a few lines. I guess my mind or memory is not improving with age! I'll go hide in a corner somewhere.

Mark

Originally posted by Kaz: Just to clear things up (AGAIN) by "overly patriotic and proud" I meant "very patriotic and proud" as in more than in most European countries. I muct've gotten the two words confused. American patriotism seems very intimidating to me, as I am no longer used to any kind of patriotism. Better now? Everyone happy? I just thought of an example. If for example you had a favorite soccre team and were very proud of them, and that soccer team was actually a country then you would be patriotic

Kaz I realize you are pretty young, but as you go through life, try to not be intimidated by ideas or concepts. Patriotism is not something that should inspire intimidation. Is there nothing you are proud of? All Patriotism is, is being proud of your country. So think of it as that feeling you get when you are proud of ...well what ever it is you are proud of.

None of my posts were an attempt to knock you for your views, Im just trying to understand your point of view and to ascertain exactly what you mean.


------------------
Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-12-2001).]

[Kaz]

Originally posted by MagiK: Kaz I realize you are pretty young, but as you go through life, try to not be intimidated by ideas or concepts. Patriotism is not something that should inspire intimidation. Is there nothing you are proud of? All Patriotism is, is being proud of your country. So think of it as that feeling you get when you are proud of ...well what ever it is you are proud of. None of my posts were an attempt to knock you for your views, Im just trying to understand your point of view and to ascertain exactly what you mean.

The problem with German patriotism (one of the things I was trying to get across, GODS I must be tired for this to have gotten so garbled) is that people are always ready to call you a Nazi for being proud of being a German. I enjoy living in Germany, I really like it here and consider it the best country I've lived in so far, but somehow patriotism is not in it. One of the reasons for this is, I think, that we learn - in the schools, at home, everywhere - that patriotism is "bad". So basically, when hearing all these people praise their country, which they have a right to do, I come up against the indoctrinated belief that patriotism is "bad" - I feel uneasy, I actually felt ill hearing the Congressmen sing "God bless America". And maybe patriotism is a bad thing for Germany right now, we still need time to get over WWII and its consequences, but this difference may be one of the reasons why America is not liked that much over here.

------------------


Kazara

Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe

[skywalker]

Kaz, Nazi was a party not a nationality, I would not be offended if you ever said you were proud to be German!

Mark