Abortion: Poll and Discussion

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I've decided you know that site in waaayyyy too much detail. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

He does like it, doesn't he? Almost as much as the Evil Residents of the Underdark.

[ 01-28-2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Attalus ]

[Attalus]

Originally posted by RevRuby: i have been sitting here wishing i could let loose everything stored up in my heart about my hate of abortions, but i do not wish to be removed from iw.

I guess that is the reason that abortion is such a touchy subject, isn't it? Pro-life people hate it so much that they find it difficult to remain civil, yet most of us in the middle are just vaguely uncomfortable with it, not liking it at all but reluctant, like Cerek, to impose our views on others.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Zyzzyrazz: 1. Pro-choice, and in cases of consensual procreation, the father needs to have a say. 2. Death is a part of life, and the earth is way overpopulated anyways. 3. Umm, my religious beliefs are rather complex, I don't belong to any recognized religion, more of an amalgamation of numerous philosophies, with some of my own postulates intertwined. So no, my beliefs of this matter are not against my beliefs. 4. The more tramatic the circumstances of conception, the more I personally support abortion; but it is the choice of the individual, although I must say they should have the abortion as early as possible, anything over 3 months is way too long. 5. I'm for the removal of those who are a threat to the well-being of the propogation of our species, but there would need to be concrete evidence for them to be executed, otherwise imprison them until said evidence can be obtained; we also need much greater expedience of execution.

I must say I really dig this post. I think I agree with almost every single word. Except possibly the "is" in line . . . oh well I digress.

Really, this does bring up some points that otehrs have touched on earlier. But, the one I haven't spoken to yet is the father. Sometimes they are, as Yorick mentioned, a "victim" of abortion.

In the law, fathers have VERY limited rights. I took a Family Law class that really opened my eyes on a lot of these issues. But, fathers are really at the whim of the mother under the law - unmarried fathers, I mean. They can't really enforce any rights against the mother as far as parentage except in the most egregious of circumstances, such as when the mother is unavailable (e.g. in jail) - and even then the system will oft toss the kid into the foster home whirlpool.

On the other hand, if a woman points the finger at a man and says "I slept with him, he's the father" the man is facing an immediate subpoena and court order for a DNA test (at the taxpayer's expense if the woman is on public aid, which is MOST cases, BTW). Oh, and in those public aid cases, the state is chasing down and finding fathers.

A child born unto a marriage is considered a child of the marriage - a legal presumption. A signed certificate of parentage at birth is the same. In either situation, the presumption is so strong you cannot get a DNA test entered even if the woman readily admits the baby is someone else's. Flip side of this: if a man has a child with a woman married to another man, the law presumes the husband to be the father and the biological father has all of his rights cut off.

Sorry, as a hopefully will-be father one day these parentage issues concern me. Relating it back to abortion, the father who disagrees with the mother in a pregnancy situation faces one of the following situations:
1. (He wants child/ she doesn't): he has to watch his unborn child be taken away, no matter his beliefs whatsoever; or
2. (He doesn't want it/ she does): he has had his constitutional right to procreate/not procreate (See Baird and Yoder Supreme Court cases) cut off, and must pay child support for 18-25 years, no matter his choice whatsoever.

Now, how to address this? I dunno. [img]graemlins/awcrap.gif[/img] There seems to be little argument his rights come into play anywhere near the order of importance of the mother and child's. But, this hypothetical guy certainly faces some tough times.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Relating it back to abortion, the father who disagrees with the mother in a pregnancy situation faces one of the following situations: 1. (He wants child/ she doesn't): he has to watch his unborn child be taken away, no matter his beliefs whatsoever; or 2. (He doesn't want it/ she does): he has had his constitutional right to procreate/not procreate (See Baird and Yoder Supreme Court cases) cut off, and must pay child support for 18-25 years, no matter his choice whatsoever.

That's a very good point Timber. It's considered very bad taste for a man not to want the child if the woman does, but when it's the other way around, he has no say in the matter either. It must be heartwrenching when the guy really wants to have the baby and the woman has it taken away.
I agree we should pay more attention to their point of view.

[Larry_OHF]

I have a question. Does anyone know of a child that knows he or she is the product of a violent crime? Are they old enough to tell you what they think of thier existance?
I am curious to know...because I know how I'd personally feel. I would like other opinions besides mine from those that have been there, however.

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

1. (He wants child/ she doesn't): he has to watch his unborn child be taken away, no matter his beliefs whatsoever; or 2. (He doesn't want it/ she does): he has had his constitutional right to procreate/not procreate (See Baird and Yoder Supreme Court cases) cut off, and must pay child support for 18-25 years, no matter his choice whatsoever

I see a few option here. When he wants it and she doesnt , he can always go find someone else to have kids with. To my knowledge, mothers have to pay child support if the father has custody. As for the unborn child being taken away, I can see an argument for it is it is an late third trimester abortion, but not for a first trimester abortion. If you cant tell what to name it because it hasnt gotten out of the "tadpole" stage , then IMHO you are being either overly sensitive or overly dramatic.

For the he doesnt/she does, I have heard that a parent can give up all parental rights to get out of haveing to deal with it. I also have to wonder what some people are thinking when they try to force the other parent to "be there" for the kid when the other parent never wanted to have a kid in the first place. There are tons of cases of child abuse and neglect simply because one of the parents didnt want kids and treats their child badly just because it is alive.

My own opinion is that if you dont want kids then you need to be more carefull!!If you are a man get the clips put in you that keep the sperm from comeing out. If you are a woman get an IUD. Neither is 100% , but if you do that and use another form of birth contol you realy reduce your chances of getting pregnant.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: I have a question. Does anyone know of a child that knows he or she is the product of a violent crime? Are they old enough to tell you what they think of thier existance? I am curious to know...because I know how I'd personally feel. I would like other opinions besides mine from those that have been there, however.

I don't know Larry, I think you'd have to be one to know what it's like. Of course if you had a normal childhood, imagining being born in such a way must seem terrible, but you don't know how it actually is. I think Hugh's story does prove that if the child is really wanted by the mother and given a lot of love, it can be happy, and it will be able to live with the knowledge of how it was conceived. Lots of children are "unplanned" but once they arrive, parental lve kicks in and they are definitely wanted then. Of course there are situations where the child really would be better off not having been born - when its parents hate it and never wanted it in the first place. That's why it's so dangerous to force a woman to have a child she didn't want. Of course, it is equally dangerous to advise abortion to a mother, because it might be the happiest decision of her life later on to have the baby. That's why no one really can make the decision for her. All you can hope for is that people do not see abortion as an easy or morally sound solution, nor that they frown upon it as murder.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Melusine: Sorry Hugh, but with all the respect, you can never have a real idea of what it's like. You take one example of someone you admire and would hold all women who have to go through that hell to the same high standard? I cannot but disagree very strongly with that. What if the child is not a "beautiful girl" but a child that constantly reminds the mother? That may look like its father? That may be sickly or deformed because its parents were related? Again, I mean no offense but no matter what you have SEEN, you haven't experienced it so you shouldn't be ready with your judgement. Good for your friend that she managed to do this, but I don't regard women who cannot as in any way weaker, morally less strong, or in any way less than her. Just getting through the experience is enough accomplishment, and if they decide to abort a fetus (given that they do so early in the pregnancy) it is, IMHO, understandable and not to be frowned upon.

Hi Mel. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Actually I know at least 3 girls who have been pregnant as a result of rape, and two other older women who had 'standard' abortions (and now cannot have children much to their despair) 2 had the child. The third aborted. The girl I recently worked with whomI mentioned is what changed my mind about it all. I saw the result of her decision. A beautiful girl. I lost contact with the first girl after her child was a few years old. Her child was also beautiful.

A child is an individual and shouldn't be limited to being just a "reminder" of the father. No child should have to live with the restrictions their heritage placed upon them. Isn't that part of what slavery is about? Someone born into slavery, inheriting the condition of the parents? How about the 'capitalist dream' that anyone can rise above the conditions that brought them into the world? The child is not their father. Their child will not be raised by the rapist. Nurture does play a vital role in personality development. In the abortion of a rape-child the child pays the ultimate penalty for who their father was.

Mel. I never said it was easy. It's a difficulty. It's a tough tough thing. I never said it wasn't. The husband of a rape victim bearing a resultant child must go through a kind of hell too. It's terrible no doubt.

But do we create further evil as a result of evil? If it's too hard to keep the child giving it up for adoption is an alternative.

Having the child turns the evil act around. It lets a different sort of healing take place. Thousands of Korean women did this after being raped by Japanese soldiers in WWII. They turned horror into life creation.

Getting over a hellish experience is not forgetting about it. That is repression. Memory repression. It lies in the subconscious for years, all the while affecting behaviour. We also lose whatever knowledge is gleaned from such a painful experience.

Part of healing from negative consequences involves the eventual ability to look back at the situations without them causing the gut-wrenching grief or horror they used to. To look back with acceptance of it as part of the tapestry of life. An obstacle that had to be overcome, not forgotten and erased.

Having the child is one way to do that. The mother can look at the child. Feel the love between them and decide that they would not change the past if they had the option, because the positive results outweigh the negative ones.

It's a tough medicine, but no-one said life was easy. I'm not saying life is easy.

[ 01-28-2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Thoran]

A very touchy subjedt TL, but much more civil than any other discussion of abortion I've ever seen.

I lean towards pro-life, and my main reason is because I know a number of women who've had abortions and it's a brutal thing for a person to live with. I would not wish that on anyone I love.

I know adoption is a hard thing for a mother to do, but at least they'll know their child is alive and has a fair shot at a good life. I also tend to think that with the ever improving birth control options (I hear rumor there will be a male birth control pill reasonably soon) there's less and less of an excuse for people to not take adequate precautions... although I would significantly increase educational efforts with teens to make sure they get the point.

Now as a male I have another issue with abortion, and that is the fact that women have choice but men don't. If a woman gets pregnant today she has 100% control over her body, she decides if she's going to carry the child to term or have an abortion to free herself from any responsibility for the "mistake" she made with her partner. In the case of the man, he gets to wait and live with whatever the woman decides. She wants the child? Well then the man gets to spend the next 20 years paying child support. She doesn't want the child? Well then the man has no say in the matter, irregardless of his beliefs regarding abortion. To me this seems a very inequitable situation. I'm not suggesting that a male partner should be able to "veto" a womans choice to abort, but at the least a man should have the ability to have a "virtual abortion" and give up all rights to and responsibilities for a child that the mother may or may not choose to have. Also if a woman decides to have the child and offer it for adoption, the father should have automatic custody unless he explicitly signs that away. Sadly this is often not the case, and many fathers have found that a childs mother has given up a child without even notifying him, and he has no legal recourse today.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: I have a question. Does anyone know of a child that knows he or she is the product of a violent crime? Are they old enough to tell you what they think of thier existance? I am curious to know...because I know how I'd personally feel. I would like other opinions besides mine from those that have been there, however.

I've already mentioned the girls I know. The child is 11 and knows and is a lovely lovely girl. A lot of inner beauty.

People rise above their station and circumstances of their birth. The past is not a badge we have to wear that defines and limits us unless we choose it will.