LittleBigHorn

[Billikins the Bold]

Originally posted by Grand-Ranger: Well, gee you know I feel sorry for the indains and all, but as the old saying gose only the srong survive. Call me cruel and all but its true. How come no one ever makes a big deal about the jews?

Only the strong survive? Well, I feel its got more to do with morals and ethics. You can't pretend to be "Christian" and deomcratic, just to tear up treaties and provoke massacres wihtout people calling you on it can you?

As to no one ever making a big deal about "the jews"... Sorry, have I slipped into an parallel universe here, one without a World Holocaust Day, without films like Shindlers List, one where childern aren't taught about concentration camps? Or are you making a point about the Middle East where the Isrealis do seem to be overstepping the mark (to say the least).


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Fear? I know not the meaning of the word. And you can keep that dictionary away from me!

[AzureWolf]

Originally posted by Billikins the Bold: Only the strong survive? Well, I feel its got more to do with morals and ethics. You can't pretend to be "Christian" and deomcratic, just to tear up treaties and provoke massacres wihtout people calling you on it can you?

Exactly

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"I was born of darkness. My fathers eyes closed before mine opened. I am not of this world or the other, and I have the right to be what I am..."

[Kaz]

Originally posted by Grand-Ranger: Well, gee you know I feel sorry for the indains and all, but as the old saying gose only the srong survive. Call me cruel and all but its true. How come no one ever makes a big deal about the jews?

Only the strong survive? That might be true in nature, but we are now "civilized" people whose business is it to make sure everybody survive. We no longer live in a "kill or be killed" world. And also... look at some of the products of our civilization: drug addicts, gangs, high crime rate, racism, injustice, corruption... the list is endless. Would you call this "strong"?

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I am the great Kazara

Originally posted by Rikard: Americans tend to think themselfs more important as other people also illustated in the Vietnam war what the americans called a huge victory for the vietnamese and they were complaining how many men the american had lost a total of 60000 men... compared to 2,500000 vietnamese...

I would hope that you wouldn't think that just because I am an American, I hold myself above all other nations as being "better" in any way. The same for a lot of other Americans who feel the same way that I do, that all people are created equal.
Yes, our constitution states it and no, our leaders have not always viewed all people with equal respect, nor do they still, because money rules all over the world and people within this country's boundaries are just as subject to discrimination as foreigners simply by how much money they have. The color of your skin and the shape of your eyes or nose has nothing to do with any of it.
Our governing offices were designed to keep the rich in power. That is not my fault nor the fault of any citizen still alive in the United States, however since the richest families have the majority of a history in the operation of this country, that is unlikely to change for a while. Sorry for the rant, but I really get irked when I see statements made about Americans in general when all we citizens do is vote for those we think best for the job of running the place. History has proven more than once that our votes mean little when it comes right down to it because of the reputations that politicians have earned for being nothing more than greedy liars. Not all of them are, but the world around us seems to make judgements against the whole nation for the acts of a few and it isn't right.

FYI, The loss of the Vietnam war by the Americans was a political loss. It was not based on the number of people killed but rather on the outcome of Vietnamese policies once the war had ended.

I read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee as a pre-teen. I saw my father read it many times.
We should be sorry for the treatment of the Indians and the rape and theft of their land on a world-wide level, not just a national one, after all, it was the Europeans who came over here and commited the atrocities.
The Indians (with the exception of the Apache and Commanche) lived in peace with the Spanish southerners until the Anglo-Saxon invasions that eventually claimed all this land as The United States.
The Apaches and Commanches were given reputations as being "war-like" because they refused to give up, be bought out, or allow themselves to be invaded for their gold and silver. It was theirs to begin with. It was part of the land on which they sustained themselves.
Yes, Native American Indians had tribal skirmishes within regions across the whole country but those were kept locally and none were founded on wealth.

This country was "discovered" in a search for gold and those looking for it had to claim it as theirs in order to secure their political victories with their European backers.
The lives of the native peoples obviously mattered little or there would have been a more peaceful solution than to completely wipe out so many tribes and limit those that survived to be captured to be forced to live their lives in "reservations"; nothing more than free concentration camps and land that the whites thought no one would want to live on anyway...land without (known) raw resources with which they could obtain wealth.
It has nothing to do with being the strongest. It has everything to do with the accumulation of wealth vs protecting the land on which you live and feed. When you are outnumbered by the rich and greedy who can "buy" their supper, you lose, especially if you are sitting on a source of wealth and you don't give it up or use it to buy your protection in a manner that benefits only the greedy.


P.S. Rikard, I know you are only sixteen but you need to know that the acts of this country's government is not always a reflection of it citizen's beliefs and ideals. Many Americans view Viet Nam as a mistake and a loss to our country on more than a political level. We feel for the suffering the Vietnamese went through at the hands of our military too. Vietnamese refugees are welcomed in this country and given more priveledges toward the pursuit of happiness than its own citizens. It does not make what happened right, nor does it do anything to keep Americans from resenting being held back to allow a refugee a "better chance" but no government is perfect enough to please everyone is it?

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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!



[This message has been edited by Moni (edited 08-31-2001).]

[Kaz]

Hello Moni!
I believe that you will find more Americans with that attitude than people of other nationalities. I think that that was what Rikard meant, although I may be wrong.

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I am the great Kazara

Hi Kaz!

I do hope you are wrong because I know not one American (with any intelligence) who believes themselves to be better than any other nation on this planet!
If foriegn opinions are based soley on American travelers to other countries...keep in mind that they had to have money to get there.

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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!

[This message has been edited by Moni (edited 08-31-2001).]

[Kaz]

Originally posted by Moni: Hi Kaz! I do hope you are wrong because I no not one American (with any intelligence) who believes themselves to be better than any other nation on this planet! If foriegn opinions are based soley on American travelers to other countries...keep in mind that they had to have money to get there.

Actually I formed that opinion in History lesson in America, where we did the Revolutionary and the Civil War 2 times but did not spend time on any other aspect of history. Also the history lessons we had made America look like a wonderful country which has never harmed a fly and is the very best thing in the whole world. I thought "Wait a minute here..."
I also noticed the proliferation of American flags, although this may be because I now live in Germany where you see maybe one German flag a month. Maybe. And that is near official buildings, I've never seen one near a private building.

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I am the great Kazara

Ah yes, the 'ole red white and blue...you see it flying everywhere. A symbol of pride to those in the pursuit of happiness or (mainly) of having been a veteran, that is, when you see them flying over people's houses. A reminder of what a pain in the ass living here is to those struggling to live day to day.

No, America has harmed many many flies unfortunately, but there is hope here for all people. Not always working solutions, but at least hope.
Foreigners are lucky in that if they decide they don't want to stay, they can always allow themselves to be deported and go back home.
The majority of foreigners though, do find a government willing to help them establish themselves in their own pursuit of happiness, and unfortunately, that leaves the poorer (not the poorest) Americans in the dust. It can be good for some while making it suck for others.

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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!

[MILAMBER]

Thank you Moni. I am with you completely.

I don't want to flame, but I am getting really tired of people making stereotypes of Americans. I like to think I'm a moral person who doesn't have any egotistical superiority complex. Do not label me. Do not judge me. Just because our government might handle a situation a certain way, PLEASE don't make the leap of reasoning to assume that each of the millions of individuals that call America home would do the same.

I don't judge anybody based on what ethnicity/culture they hail from. If I did, I would be a very lonely person living in a country that has every culture imaginable living in relatively close proximity. I would greatly appreciate it if the same courtesy was extended to me.

How ironic for someone to pass judgement saying that Americans think they're superior. You would have to be far superior yourself to be able to pass judgement on an entire country's citizenry without being a complete hippocrite. Do you actually think you are superior to Americans? No, I'm sure you do not, and regardless, I wouldn't want to judge you.

Vietnam. Do you think Americans supported Vietnam? Do you have any idea how many protesters there were to that war? That war was a political war that very few Americans supported. I don't think either side won that war. Every government makes mistakes. Let's not go casting stones around unless your country has a spotless track record.

About the Indians, I have not read that book, but it seems extremely interesting. I have read quite a bit on our Native Americans, and in many cases I have heard conflicting stories. If this book is acurate, that is very intersting to know. I will go buy it.

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"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
-General George Patton (1885-1945)

Member of CLAN HADB

Milamber,
Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee is an excellent book. A must read for every American IMO.


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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!