Fighter > Cleric vs. Fighter > Mage

[darkmage]

I've complete the game twice. This ... I don't understand ...

The dual Fighter>Cleric has a better thaco than the dual Fighter>Mage. Why is that? (assuming no extra spell enhancement)

[Azred]

That really depends upon when you dual-classed the character. If a fighter/cleric and a fighter/mage both changed class at 9th level, then upon attaining 17th level the fighter/cleric drops to a base Thac0 of 10 while the fighter/mage still has a Thac0 of 12. Clerics are better fighters than mages.

[Soothsayer]

Im not exactly sure of the rules tat apply to dualling, but Clerics have better THAC0 then Mages, so it makes sense to me...

But that just me...

[NobleNick]

darkmage,

Check out the chart, below. Remember that lower THAC0s are better.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
. Hit Points (HP), THAC0, and Attacks per Round (ApR) vs. CLVL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
CLVL|__________HP__________|____________THAC0_____ _______|______ApR______|
____|_FPR_|_CD__|_TB__|_M__|_F__|_PR_|_CD_|_T__|_B __|_M__|_F_|_P_|_R_|Oth|
_01_|__14_|__10_|___8_|___6_|_18_|_18_|_20_|_20_|_ 20_|_20_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_02_|__28_|__20_|__16_|__12_|_17_|_17_|_20_|_20_|_ 20_|_20_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_03_|__42_|__30_|__24_|__18_|_14_|_16_|_18_|_18_|_ 19_|_19_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_04_|__56_|__40_|__32_|__24_|_13_|_15_|_17_|_18_|_ 19_|_18_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_05_|__70_|__50_|__40_|__30_|_12_|_14_|_17_|_17_|_ 18_|_18_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_06_|__84_|__60_|__48_|__36_|_11_|_13_|_17_|_17_|_ 18_|_18_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_07_|__98_|__70_|__56_|__42_|_10_|_12_|_15_|_16_|_ 17_|_17_|_2._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_08_|_112_|__80_|__64_|__48_|__9_|_11_|_15_|_16_|_ 17_|_17_|_2._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_09_|_126_|__90_|__72_|__54_|__8_|_10_|_15_|_15_|_ 16_|_17_|_3._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_10_|_129_|__92_|__78_|__58_|__7_|__9_|_13_|_15_|_ 16_|_16_|_3._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_11_|_132_|__94_|__80_|__59_|__6_|__8_|_13_|_14_|_ 15_|_16_|_3._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_12_|_135_|__96_|__82_|__60_|__5_|__7_|_13_|_14_|_ 15_|_16_|_3._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_13_|_138_|__98_|__84_|__61_|__4_|__6_|_11_|_13_|_ 14_|_15_|_3.5|2.5|3.5|_1_|
_14_|_141_|_100_|__86_|__62_|__3_|__5_|_11_|_13_|_ 14_|_15_|_3.5|2.5|3.5|_1_|
_15_|_144_|_102_|__88_|__63_|__2_|__4_|_11_|_12_|_ 13_|_15_|_3.5|2.5|3.5|_1_|

- Numbers above assume character's STR=DEX=CON=18 & "Max HP/LVL".

- THAC0 & ApR are the effective scores for the melee weapon held. Assumes:
. . - PPs are stacked first in melee weapon, as high as the class allows;
. . - Character wields the weapon that gives highest THAC0.
. . - Basic mid-quality Weapon, with NO magical modifiers..
. . - ApR numbers for Ranger assume no shield.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

For a DC character, the stats are the best of the active classes. Furthermore, THAC0 is dependent on the # of PP stacked in the weapon held at the time. Let's look at some examples using FlaC the DC Fighter/Cleric and FlaM the DC Fighter/Mage. For all examples, the characters progress to a certain level in Fighter, then DC, and progress to a level in Cleric or Mage that allows the Fighter class to become active. Both characters in each example have the same total XP. Unless explicitly stated otherwise, the characters stack PP and use the melee weapon in which their PP are most highly stacked. THAC0 is stated for melee weapon thus held, and with NO modifiers due to equipment or spells.

Example 1: FlaC = F(3)/C(4), and FlaM = F(3)/M(4). THAC0 for F(3) is 14, for C(4) is 17, and for M(4) is 18. The Fighter's THAC0 is best in all cases, so both FlaM and FlaC have identical THAC0s of 14.

Example 2: Same as Example 1, but FlaC and Flam have now both aged to M(13) and C(13). The THAC0 for M(13) is 15 and for C(13) is 11. FlaM's F(3) THAC0 of 14 is better than the 15 he would otherwise get from being a M(13), so his THAC0 is still 14. FlaC, however, has progressed far enough that his C(13) THAC0 of 11 is better than what he would get from being a F(3), so FlaC's THAC0 is 11.

Example 3: FlaC decides to pile on the Fighter XP and waits til F(9) to DC --> FlaC = F(9)/C(10); while FlaM unwisely decides that only a little Fighter is a good thing --> FlaM = F(3)/M(12). FlaC's THAC0 is 8. FlaM's F(3) THAC0 of 14 is STILL better than the 16 he would get as a Mage, even though he is a M(12). FlaM will need to reach M(19) before he betters his THAC0 to 13; and it will be a cold day in Hell before he gets even close to the THAC0 of 8 that FlaC enjoys.

Example 4: Same as Example 3, but FlaC and FlaM make opposite choices: FlaC = F(3)/C(11), and FlaM = F(9)/M(11). FlaC's C(11) gives him a THAC0 of 13, which is better than the 14 he would otherwise get from his F(3). Meanwhile, FlaM enjoys the same THAC0 of 8, from his F(9), that FlaC had in Example 3. So for this case, the DC Mage has a significant THAC0 advantage over the DC Cleric. FlaC will need to advance to C(19) before his THAC0 jumps from 9 down to 7, passing up FlaM (who will be stuck at 8 forever in any reasonable game). C(19) will probably not be achieved in a normal game without doing the expansions and camping.

Example 5: FlaC and FlaM both want a decent amount of Fighter blood in their veins. FlaC decides to go for F(6), to get the extra PP. FlaM decides to go to F(7) to pick up the additional 1/2 ApR. After a while, they advance to F(6)/C(8) and F(7)/M(8). FlaC has a THAC0 of 11, and FlaM has a THAC0 of 10. Both THAC0s are from the Fighter class. These numbers will remain exactly the same (with the Mage having a BETTER THAC0 than the Cleric) until FlaC reaches C(16) and gets a THAC0 of 9. This will never happen in just IWD, but can be achieved if the character also does the expansions. FlaM's Mage side will never progress far enough to alter the THAC0 of 10 he gets from the F(7).

Example 6: FlaC and Flam both go for F(9). Their THAC0s will be identical (THAC0 = 8) for the entire game (for all games of reasonable length and settings, and when the Fighter classes are active).

CONCLUSION: For low to medium Fighter levels, the DC F/C will eventually get better THAC0 than the DC F/M. For Fighter levels of 9 and above, the character's final THAC0 will come from the Fighter-side, and is thus highly dependent on the Fighter's CLVL at DC and how the Fighter's PP were stacked in the weapon wielded. The selection of Mage or Cleric as the secondary class typically has NO effect on the final THAC0 of a well planned DC Fighter for any game of reasonable length and settings.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[Kyrvias]

clerics are more fighting inclined than mages, s would have a better THACO

[NobleNick]

kyrvias,

[img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . WELCOME to the IWD boards! [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

Nice to see a fellow Washingtonian cruising the boards!

Yes you are right, from an RPG viewpoint, that a Cleric should be more physical and therefore have a better THAC0 than the Mage. And that is true for a Single Class character. But we are talking about a DC Fighter character. The point I wanted to make is that for a DC character in IWD, slight changes in the Fighter side can swamp out all of the difference between the Mage and the Cleric: huge differences in THAC0 of the finished character can be bought for very little expo invested in the Fighter side of a DC character.

Furthermore (and I just realized this), the F/M could be a better ranged warrior than the F/C of the same Fighter level, since the F/M gets full Long Bow capabilities, whereas the F/C is restricted to Sling and other less potent ranged weapons.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[Kyrvias]

So it all boils down to how you play.

[darkmage]

Won't the DC Fig/Mage be better off with that throwing axe+2 vs a long bow? He only gets 3*** in bows but gets 5***** in axes.

[darkmage]

The DC F/Cleric will eventually have to put 5* into a single type of weapon. What would generally be the best? and Why?

[Aerich]

Mace. Because there's more maces around. Including an undead slayer in HoW.