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Old 06-28-2004, 10:09 AM   #21
Thoran
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Well... this is my opinion of the liberal tirade, I mean... ARTICLE. First I'll mention that I've never struck either of my children, I've been lucky enough to have children that have never needed it. My wife utilized a swat on the behind for "hand on the hot stove" type dangerous situations. I believe its use was entirely appropriate.

Overall I don't disagree as strongly as the following rebuttal would seem to indicate, but I HATE it when people like this try to tell me how to parent, so I'm gleefully playing the devils advocate and shooting holes in a poorly written article.

1) This statement is based on an assertion of "extensive research". There is also "extensive research" that has established that using corporal punishment leads to children and adults that are better adjusted... which is correct? Depends on who you talk to, and most importantly, depends on who does the research.

2) In many cases of so-called "bad behavior", the child is simply responding in inapprorpriate ways to things in his/her envirnonment that he/she doesn't like. Correction is not intended to address the lack of coping mechanisms... it is a method of applying a correction for the childs use of an inappropriate coping mechnaism, nothing more. It is the additional responsibility of the parent to provide appropriate coping mechanisms, but that responsibility is in addition to correcting inappropriate behavior, not in replacement of.

3) Again, punishment is not used to teach coping mechanisms, it's used to correct behavior. It does not distract from learning nor does it preoccupy the child with revenge if the child knows he/she was acting inappropriately (if they can cognitively consider revenge then they are typically aware that what they're doing is wrong).

4) Blah blah blah religous B.S. blah blah blah irrelevant irrelevant irrelevant blah blah blah.

5) Complete and utter B.S. (CaUB). Appropriate use of punishment is a tool to be used by the parent, it's potential to interfere with the bond is equivelant to the damage done by overly permissive parents (who's children have no respect for their parents or anyone else). Inappropriate application of ANY tool is likely to cause problems, punishment is just a tool. Children respond positively on an emotional and behavioral level to parents who care enough to provide limits on their childrens behavior, and punishment is one tool available to enforce those (oft tested) limits.

6) Straw man... "many parents" is an attempt to make a narrow conclusion broad. The VAST majority of parents love their children and apply positive methods whenever possible, the few incompetent parents out there are NOT representative of parents at large. This is what I like to call the "gun control argument". Since the tool is abused by a few, we should of course then take it away from all, it's an intellectually bankrupt argument.

7) Angry teen syndrom is far more a phenomena of modern parenting than it ever was in the old days of physical punishment. IMO it's permissive parents who raise uncontrollable teens that cause this particular problem. I find the fact that those same parents use the problem they've created to justify trying to FORCE others to adopt their parenting methods rather amusing.

8) Spanking is typically on the behind because it gets attention without causing real pain. Erogenous zones... sheesh... this is REALLY reaching, probably trying to appeal to the phobias many North Americans have about sex. Then throw in lower back pain so everyone who's been spanked and have back pain can blame his parents instead of the 200 lb sacks of concrete he was lifting the other day. CaUB!

9) Again I disagree, the APPROPRIATE use of punishment corrects a behavior, and ironically, correctable behaviors INCLUDE physical violence. The prevelance of violence in our teens these days... ESPECIALLY teens who lack a discipline maintiaining father figure... refutes the authors conclusion.

10) children learn thorugh parental modeling, and the use of physical punishment becomes a tool available to the well balanced parent (just one more tool among MANY used to raise their children).

"Gentle instruction blah blah blah" is simply the authors attempt to put an unassailably humanisitic front on what is essential an attempt to limit the tools that parents have available to raise their children. This author is essentially telling every parent that they're incompentent, unable to determine situationally when physical punishment is the appropriate tool for the situation.

Many children can and are raised successfully using reinforcing (positive and negative) methods only, but many others grow up with no parental respect (which leads to lack of respect for ANY authority), no discipline, and a lack of personal accountability that allows them to justify any behavior, no matter how bad. When you see these children (and you will OFTEN these days) you can be assured that it's society reaping the rewards of its 'kinder, gentler', and more ineffectual parenting methods.

Behavioral modification can take essentailly four forms, positive and negative reinforcement, punishment, and extinction. By forcing parents to ONLY use reinforcement methods, this author and others like him are making the job of parenting far more difficult (and possibly impossible in the case of some children)... all based on their FEELING that they have all the answers and that the rest of us are too incompetent to know what is best for our children.

They're the modern version of the old 'Busy Body'... busy minding everyone else's business because then they don't have to look at the mess they've quite often made of their own lives.

[ 06-28-2004, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]
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Old 06-28-2004, 10:15 AM   #22
Thoran
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dirty Meg:
Children misbehave because of bad parenting. No one in a position of authority will ever say this though, because children can't vote and parents can.
LOL... a grain of truth but to simplistic.

Children misbehave because they don't know HOW to behave, it's the parents responsiblity to guide them as they grow, to TEACH them how to behave. A bad parent can cause bad behavior in their children, both by teaching them bad behaviors and failing to teach them good ones, but bad parenting is not the cause of all misbehavior. The toddler that grabs the toy from another is not doing so because their parent taught them to, but the 7 year old who does the same thing is doing so because their parents never taught them NOT to.
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Old 06-28-2004, 10:51 AM   #23
Dreamer128
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thoran:

Overall I don't disagree as strongly as the following rebuttal would seem to indicate, but I HATE it when people like this try to tell me how to parent,
True. Of course people must have some space when raising their children, but I do feel that when it they manage to prove that hitting children has longlasting negative physical and psychological consequences (even if this only applies on a limited number of children), steps must be taken to protect these kids. There are plenty of bad parents around, and there should be limits to the damage they can do to their children.

On another note, if anyone has an article proclaiming the benefits of spanking kids, feel free to post it here.

[ 06-28-2004, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]
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Old 06-28-2004, 11:10 AM   #24
Thoran
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer128:
quote:
Originally posted by Thoran:

Overall I don't disagree as strongly as the following rebuttal would seem to indicate, but I HATE it when people like this try to tell me how to parent,
True. Of course people must have some space when raising their children, but I do feel that when it they manage to prove that hitting children has longlasting negative physical and psychological consequences (even if this only applies on a limited number of children), steps must be taken to protect these kids. There are plenty of bad parents around, and there should be limits to the damage they can do to their children.

On another note, if anyone has an article proclaiming the benefits of spanking kids, feel free to post it here.
[/QUOTE]It's a dangerous thing to use broad legislation to protect a few, and it's impossible to legislate good parenting. At best such action is ineffectual, at worst it does real damage. If a tool can be correctly and appropriately applied by good parents, it's wrong to play social engineer and take it way... all the while hopeing that there won't be any negative social implecations.

I'd equally like to see real clinical studies that establish long term damage from parental spanking (not child abuse, there's already lots of legislation covering that).
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Old 06-28-2004, 11:18 AM   #25
Grojlach
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally posted by JrKASperov:
No, the Bible says that we should not stone 'disobedient' children, it says we should stone those children who refuse to listen and learn even when we have employed spanking or other means of teaching or enforcing.

Besides, the first parts of the Bible are laws for Jews, but my main reason is to show that you are giving a rather harsh image of the Bible and that is not quite right
Yeah, you're right - the act of stoning in such a case isn't harsh or barbarian whatsoever. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
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Old 06-28-2004, 11:22 AM   #26
Grojlach
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Quote:
Originally posted by Har'oloth:
quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
Originally posted by Grojlach:


Actually, the Bible tells us to "stone disobedient children" (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).
What does it matter what the bible say's about hitting your own children!!![/QUOTE]Exactly my point. But I didn't bring it up, SomeGuy did.

[ 06-28-2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]
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Old 06-28-2004, 12:19 PM   #27
Melusine
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LOL, I had to laugh at some of the replies but at some parts of the article too. I mean what the hell is this about??

8. Spanking on the buttocks, an erogenous zone in childhood, can create in the child's mind an association between pain and sexual pleasure, and lead to difficulties in adulthood. "Spanking wanted" ads in alternative newspapers attest to the sad consequences of this confusion of pain and pleasure. If a child receives little parental attention except when being punished, this will further merge the concepts of pain and pleasure in the child's mind. A child in this situation will have little self-esteem, believing he deserves nothing better. For more on this topic, see "The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children".

Erm, somehow I don't think the quite significant number of people who are into S&M have all been spanked as children. And making a little spank during sex sound perverse and even "sad" smacks of the sort of closeminded prudish attitude that is prevalent among people who've never tried anything beyond missionary. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
(note for the hotheaded; I'm not disclosing anything about my personal preferences here [img]tongue.gif[/img] , just picking up on something I thought was stupid)

As for the issue in general; I don't think my parents have spanked me for more than 4 or 5 times in my entire life (spanking as in a short sharp angry slap given when I was REALLY pushing the limits, not as in being put over the parent's knee and hit repeatedly as rational punishment - they never did that). I don't think it's necessary, but I don't find it particularly awful either that I was slapped a few times, because it happened so extremely rarely. I disagree with spanking as a measured, frequent, standard punishment (i.e. child commits offense, is told what it did wrong and that it will be punished by being put over the knee and given any given number of hits) and would never consider it as an option myself. And I'm convinced that the countless parents who feel likewise are none the worse parents for it, in my eyes perhaps even better.
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Old 06-28-2004, 12:48 PM   #28
Aerich
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Right, I forgot about the goofiness of #8 when writing previous posts. I don't consider it a sexual danger, unless taken to abusive extremes.

For the record, I think I was only ever spanked once by my parents (at <6 years old). I don't have any kids, but when I do I certainly won't use spanking as a disciplinary measure until absolutely EVERYTHING else has failed to get the point across.

However, two of my good friends were regularly spanked as children, and they turned out just fine. They are gentle, moral young men with an excellent relationship with their parents. So I'm not prepared to condemn spanking altogether. I'm not saying that there isn't other effective methods of child rearing, just that spanking does not necessarily =evil.
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Old 06-28-2004, 12:53 PM   #29
Melusine
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No, I think it is fairly obvious that spanking does not create deranged, abusive, effed-up adults in 100% of the cases - thankfully. If that were so there would be plenty of areas in the world full of psycho people. I do however think spanking is not strictly necessary and as such I doubt I would use it as a punishment. Why do that if you can manage just as well with other forms of punishment?
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Old 06-28-2004, 01:22 PM   #30
Aerich
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Quote:
Originally posted by Melusine:
Why do that if you can manage just as well with other forms of punishment?
Exactly. Spanking children wouldn't be my choice, but I'm prepared to allow others to raise their children that way within reasonable limits.
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