Todays Genders in Society - Page 5

01-30-2002, 12:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:
MagiK, by your premise, if a woman does not have a man to hunt, etc. (insert modern correspondence) then she would be helpless OR begin exhibiting masculine-type characteristics to the detriment of her femininity.(?) I say to that--bull shit. I may not be able to lug that deer home all in one go over my shoulders (btw, at 5'4" and only 90#, that gal is either anorexic or dead), but I can damned well bring it down as efficiently and butcher/process it to feed my family. I can also support my family in good style without A) a man or B) resorting to compromising my femininity.

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Garnet FalconDance ]

Your question here is faultyu it is not...CAN you kill but can you be as good/efficient about it as a man...I think not, not because you lack the skill but because on a purely physical basis you are not built for it...it is an engineering/physiology thing....are you better at it than some men..sure...but are you better at it than most? ...no... (this isnt realy you Im still generalizing here)

As for can you not do these things and still be feminine? no not by western standards..altho you may be prized by an eskimo...ok that was a joke.
Seriously though on average, men do not seem to find women who act masculine all that feminine...if you want to play the masculine role you will give up your feminine appeal....and before everyone jumps in and says Hey I find her sexy...you would be ignoring that the average man doesnt want his wife to be more man than he is. this is all circular anyway....round and round it goes, no one budging.

Epona · 01-30-2002, 12:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by DragonMage:
Boy oh boy, MagiK, hon...you DO know how to stir the pot. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

For the record:

Epona, I have the same 'historical knowledge' that MagiK seems to have. Any history books I've ever read talk only about male-dominated society in most early man societies. I know there were some document matriarchal societies, but I have read of only a scattered few.

I'm not talking about history though, that's the point. You can't look in any history book to find solid facts about pre-history - you couldn't 50 years ago, and you can't now - all you can have is interpretation and opinion - the evidence is archaeological. And I can be just as much of a troublemaker....

Evidence from recent archaeological research suggests that early man, before the invention of spears or ploughs, relied mostly on scavanging and foraging for subsistence. For example, animal bones found with cut marks from basic stone tools cutting through tooth marks from predator animals suggests that early tool-using hominids weren't bringing down their own prey at all, but were cutting pieces of meat from carcasses at the stage of consumption where probably the only creatures around the body were scavenging birds - you don't need a heavy muscular frame to do this, whereas with hunting it could be an advantage.

I include a whole list of references below concerning early hominid subsistence patterns, I was holding out because it was fun to watch Magik posting frantically, but after such a nice request Dragonmage, here we go....

_________________
Selvaggio, Marie: "Carnivore Tooth Marks and Stone Tool Butchery Marks on Scavenged Bones: Archaeological Implications." Journal of Human Evolution 27: 215-228

Selvaggio: "From Noble Hunters to Carrion Robbers: The Evolution of the Scavenging Model of Early Hominid Subsistence." Crosscurrents 1: 33-47

Selvaggio: "Evidence for a three stage sequence of hominid and carnivore involvement with long bones at FLK Zinjanthnopus, Olduvai Gorge Tanzania." Journal of Archaeological Science, Academic Press

Selvaggio, with R. J. Blumenschine. "On the Marks of Marrow Bones by Hammerstones and Hyenas: Their Anatomical Patterning and Archaeological Implications." In Cultural Beginnings: Approaches to Understanding Early Hominid Life-Ways in the African Savanna, edited by J. Desmond Clark.

Isotopic Evidence for the Diet of an Early Hominid, Australopithecus africanus: Matt Sponheimer, Julia A. Lee-Thorp, Science Jan 15 1999: 368-370.

Sept, Jeanne: 1994 Beyond bones: archaeological sites, early hominid subsistence, and the costs and benefits of exploiting wild plant foods in east African riverine landscapes. Journal of Human Evolution 27: 295-320

Sept, Jeanne: 1992 Archaeological evidence and ecological perspectives for reconstructing early hominid subsistence strategies. In Archaeological Method and Theory Volume 4: 1-56 M.B. Schiffer (ed) U. Arizona Press

Epona · 01-30-2002, 12:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

I also know the physiology classes still seem to teach that there are physical differences between men and women and the psychology classes still differentiate male and female thought processes....It seams that the only way to even get an acknoledgment that I might even be close to being correct that I must reproduce the entire course curricula of a school.

I just quoted a whole load of articles about it for you. I would be interested to see where exactly it is that you think I said men and women were the same? - I didn't - you have made an assumption that I believe that. A preconception.

01-30-2002, 12:56 PM

Just out of curiosity...when the Alpha Male and Alpha female of the pack disagree who wins?

Epona, do you seriously think that ancient pre-history type women who due to lack of any method of birth controll or laws, who likely were pregnant from close on to the first menses, were out there running around dominating the males who had no societal curbs placed on their testosterone induced savagery?

Epona · 01-30-2002, 12:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

Epona, do you seriously think that ancient pre-history type women who due to lack of any method of birth controll or laws, who likely were pregnant from close on to the first menses, were out there running around dominating the males who had no societal curbs placed on their testosterone induced savagery?

Where the heck did I say that? I didn't. I haven't. I wouldn't. Look in my posts, and tell me where I said that.

01-30-2002, 01:01 PM

I find it a little interesting myself, after rereading this page..I notice a distinct difference in debating styles..when faced with like minded males and females the persons here respond in one manner and style...when faced with opposing males who really differ radicly the converstion gets very aggressive and stubborn......when faced with a female who has differing views..the response becomes much milder and resoned [img]smile.gif[/img] Can it be...that a male pointing out something in a male way is more a threat than a female pointing out the same point of view in female way? [img]smile.gif[/img] only god knows I suppose.

01-30-2002, 01:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Epona:

Where the heck did I say that? I didn't. I haven't. I wouldn't. Look in my posts, and tell me where I said that.

Hmm now you have me confused [img]smile.gif[/img] We were discussing the differences of the genders..and I started out that males basicly dominated society....and you took exceptiuon to this..then I countered and then you...then I.....I dont know what the point of the whole thread is now [img]smile.gif[/img]

Epona · 01-30-2002, 01:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Can it be...that a male pointing out something in a male way is more a threat than a female pointing out the same point of view in female way? [img]smile.gif[/img] only god knows I suppose.

Honey, you are no more threatening than a puppy trying to break its way out of a wet paper bag.
I respond to DragonMage differently because I know her better, and have a great deal of respect for her. That's the difference.

01-30-2002, 01:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Epona:

I was not insulted, nor was I being passionate or emotional, which may come as a disappointment to you. I think you have read far more into my posts than I have actually said, perhaps you should go back and re-read them before jumping to any conclusions about my beliefs or opinions. I have voiced only one opinion here, and that is about foraging vs. hunting in pre-agricultural society which is my current research project. Please leave your preconceptions of me at the door.

Epona claim that if you like, but I havebeen reading and rereading..you have/we have NOT just been talking about hunting v foraging. that was one issue.

As for wether you are emmotional or not it is you reading more into what I said...I just expressed the fact about my posts and said nothing about your posts being emmotional.

Epona · 01-30-2002, 01:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

Hmm now you have me confused [img]smile.gif[/img] We were discussing the differences of the genders..and I started out that males basicly dominated society....and you took exceptiuon to this..then I countered and then you...then I.....I dont know what the point of the whole thread is now [img]smile.gif[/img]

You are obviously having a really hard time understanding me. The only thing I took exception to was your statement that men were built to be hunters. This is my subject of interest, so I posted about that. You jumped on that and made a huge assumption that I was a radical feminist, and I'm not. It was fun while it lasted, I guess now you have cottoned on, it won't be half as much fun to try and bait me.

Anyway, I have to go cook dinner...

01-30-2002, 12:50 PM	#41
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance: MagiK, by your premise, if a woman does not have a man to hunt, etc. (insert modern correspondence) then she would be helpless OR begin exhibiting masculine-type characteristics to the detriment of her femininity.(?) I say to that--bull shit. I may not be able to lug that deer home all in one go over my shoulders (btw, at 5'4" and only 90#, that gal is either anorexic or dead), but I can damned well bring it down as efficiently and butcher/process it to feed my family. I can also support my family in good style without A) a man or B) resorting to compromising my femininity. [ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Garnet FalconDance ] Your question here is faultyu it is not...CAN you kill but can you be as good/efficient about it as a man...I think not, not because you lack the skill but because on a purely physical basis you are not built for it...it is an engineering/physiology thing....are you better at it than some men..sure...but are you better at it than most? ...no... (this isnt realy you Im still generalizing here) As for can you not do these things and still be feminine? no not by western standards..altho you may be prized by an eskimo...ok that was a joke. Seriously though on average, men do not seem to find women who act masculine all that feminine...if you want to play the masculine role you will give up your feminine appeal....and before everyone jumps in and says Hey I find her sexy...you would be ignoring that the average man doesnt want his wife to be more man than he is. this is all circular anyway....round and round it goes, no one budging.

01-30-2002, 12:50 PM	#42
Epona Zartan Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 53 Posts: 5,164	quote: Originally posted by DragonMage: Boy oh boy, MagiK, hon...you DO know how to stir the pot. [img]tongue.gif[/img] For the record: Epona, I have the same 'historical knowledge' that MagiK seems to have. Any history books I've ever read talk only about male-dominated society in most early man societies. I know there were some document matriarchal societies, but I have read of only a scattered few. I'm not talking about history though, that's the point. You can't look in any history book to find solid facts about pre-history - you couldn't 50 years ago, and you can't now - all you can have is interpretation and opinion - the evidence is archaeological. And I can be just as much of a troublemaker.... Evidence from recent archaeological research suggests that early man, before the invention of spears or ploughs, relied mostly on scavanging and foraging for subsistence. For example, animal bones found with cut marks from basic stone tools cutting through tooth marks from predator animals suggests that early tool-using hominids weren't bringing down their own prey at all, but were cutting pieces of meat from carcasses at the stage of consumption where probably the only creatures around the body were scavenging birds - you don't need a heavy muscular frame to do this, whereas with hunting it could be an advantage. I include a whole list of references below concerning early hominid subsistence patterns, I was holding out because it was fun to watch Magik posting frantically, but after such a nice request Dragonmage, here we go.... _________________ Selvaggio, Marie: "Carnivore Tooth Marks and Stone Tool Butchery Marks on Scavenged Bones: Archaeological Implications." Journal of Human Evolution 27: 215-228 Selvaggio: "From Noble Hunters to Carrion Robbers: The Evolution of the Scavenging Model of Early Hominid Subsistence." Crosscurrents 1: 33-47 Selvaggio: "Evidence for a three stage sequence of hominid and carnivore involvement with long bones at FLK Zinjanthnopus, Olduvai Gorge Tanzania." Journal of Archaeological Science, Academic Press Selvaggio, with R. J. Blumenschine. "On the Marks of Marrow Bones by Hammerstones and Hyenas: Their Anatomical Patterning and Archaeological Implications." In Cultural Beginnings: Approaches to Understanding Early Hominid Life-Ways in the African Savanna, edited by J. Desmond Clark. Isotopic Evidence for the Diet of an Early Hominid, Australopithecus africanus: Matt Sponheimer, Julia A. Lee-Thorp, Science Jan 15 1999: 368-370. Sept, Jeanne: 1994 Beyond bones: archaeological sites, early hominid subsistence, and the costs and benefits of exploiting wild plant foods in east African riverine landscapes. Journal of Human Evolution 27: 295-320 Sept, Jeanne: 1992 Archaeological evidence and ecological perspectives for reconstructing early hominid subsistence strategies. In Archaeological Method and Theory Volume 4: 1-56 M.B. Schiffer (ed) U. Arizona Press __________________ [img]\"http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/epona.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

01-30-2002, 12:55 PM	#43
Epona Zartan Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 53 Posts: 5,164	quote: Originally posted by MagiK: I also know the physiology classes still seem to teach that there are physical differences between men and women and the psychology classes still differentiate male and female thought processes....It seams that the only way to even get an acknoledgment that I might even be close to being correct that I must reproduce the entire course curricula of a school. I just quoted a whole load of articles about it for you. I would be interested to see where exactly it is that you think I said men and women were the same? - I didn't - you have made an assumption that I believe that. A preconception. __________________ [img]\"http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/epona.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

01-30-2002, 12:59 PM	#45
Epona Zartan Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 53 Posts: 5,164	quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Epona, do you seriously think that ancient pre-history type women who due to lack of any method of birth controll or laws, who likely were pregnant from close on to the first menses, were out there running around dominating the males who had no societal curbs placed on their testosterone induced savagery? Where the heck did I say that? I didn't. I haven't. I wouldn't. Look in my posts, and tell me where I said that. __________________ [img]\"http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/epona.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

01-30-2002, 01:04 PM	#47
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Epona: Where the heck did I say that? I didn't. I haven't. I wouldn't. Look in my posts, and tell me where I said that. Hmm now you have me confused [img]smile.gif[/img] We were discussing the differences of the genders..and I started out that males basicly dominated society....and you took exceptiuon to this..then I countered and then you...then I.....I dont know what the point of the whole thread is now [img]smile.gif[/img]

01-30-2002, 12:56 PM	#44
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	Just out of curiosity...when the Alpha Male and Alpha female of the pack disagree who wins? Epona, do you seriously think that ancient pre-history type women who due to lack of any method of birth controll or laws, who likely were pregnant from close on to the first menses, were out there running around dominating the males who had no societal curbs placed on their testosterone induced savagery?

01-30-2002, 01:01 PM	#46
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	I find it a little interesting myself, after rereading this page..I notice a distinct difference in debating styles..when faced with like minded males and females the persons here respond in one manner and style...when faced with opposing males who really differ radicly the converstion gets very aggressive and stubborn......when faced with a female who has differing views..the response becomes much milder and resoned [img]smile.gif[/img] Can it be...that a male pointing out something in a male way is more a threat than a female pointing out the same point of view in female way? [img]smile.gif[/img] only god knows I suppose.

01-30-2002, 01:04 PM	#48
Epona Zartan Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 53 Posts: 5,164	quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Can it be...that a male pointing out something in a male way is more a threat than a female pointing out the same point of view in female way? [img]smile.gif[/img] only god knows I suppose. Honey, you are no more threatening than a puppy trying to break its way out of a wet paper bag. I respond to DragonMage differently because I know her better, and have a great deal of respect for her. That's the difference. __________________ [img]\"http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/epona.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

01-30-2002, 01:06 PM	#49
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Epona: I was not insulted, nor was I being passionate or emotional, which may come as a disappointment to you. I think you have read far more into my posts than I have actually said, perhaps you should go back and re-read them before jumping to any conclusions about my beliefs or opinions. I have voiced only one opinion here, and that is about foraging vs. hunting in pre-agricultural society which is my current research project. Please leave your preconceptions of me at the door. Epona claim that if you like, but I havebeen reading and rereading..you have/we have NOT just been talking about hunting v foraging. that was one issue. As for wether you are emmotional or not it is you reading more into what I said...I just expressed the fact about my posts and said nothing about your posts being emmotional.

01-30-2002, 01:08 PM	#50
Epona Zartan Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 53 Posts: 5,164	quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Hmm now you have me confused [img]smile.gif[/img] We were discussing the differences of the genders..and I started out that males basicly dominated society....and you took exceptiuon to this..then I countered and then you...then I.....I dont know what the point of the whole thread is now [img]smile.gif[/img] You are obviously having a really hard time understanding me. The only thing I took exception to was your statement that men were built to be hunters. This is my subject of interest, so I posted about that. You jumped on that and made a huge assumption that I was a radical feminist, and I'm not. It was fun while it lasted, I guess now you have cottoned on, it won't be half as much fun to try and bait me. Anyway, I have to go cook dinner... __________________ [img]\"http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/epona.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

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