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Old 09-23-2001, 10:48 PM   #41
Gwhanos, Lord Of Evil
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Yorick..... that was long (though I didnt read a thing on it....)

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Old 09-23-2001, 11:08 PM   #42
Grand-Ranger
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I agree with everything your saying, Yorrick. But sence you already said all of it I wont bother to say it all again

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Old 09-23-2001, 11:11 PM   #43
G'kar
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

WTF!!?? Did I say violent action was the only action? NO! I said Tracey's proposal was unworkable. I said that the British sending tanks into N.I. would be like America sending tanks into Iowa. It wouldn't happen.

Here's something. Do you know why Nelson Mandela was jailed for all that time? Largely because he wouldn't renounce violent action against the government. (Well that was the official reason.)

I respect Mandela immensely, don't get me wrong. He has healed many wounds in his land, and acted with much grace, forgiveness and compassion. However, I'm trying to point out that sometimes as humans we make the choice between the lesser of two evils. I'm a Christian. I have to do my best to turn the other cheek, to remove the cycle of hate and agression. I do not advocate violence.

However the government has a responsiblitity to provide protection for it's people. Something must be done to prevent this.

We have had a WTC bombing attempt in '93 that failed. Emabassy bombings, a ship bombed. Each time the Taliban refused to give up Bin Laden. Now 6,500 people are DEAD. The largest city in thee country has been gutted. It may not end there. What do you propose? Diplomacy has failed thus far. It hasn't worked. I pray it does. I pray the Taliban find it in their hearts to hand the guy over, but every precendent screams that they won't.

What do you do?

The Dali Lama still has compassion, he still smiles even with the knowledge of the persecution his people have suffered under the chinese. He has yet to advocate violence by any name.
Many African Americans were hung, shot, bombed killed by racists here in america. Martin Luther king and his people held steadfast to walk in peace, for to do otherwise is to put yourself at the same level as your attackers.
I wont speak for tracey, but the ghist i got from her post was you dont just give up on non-military options, just because they havent worked yet. Or jump to them because you think they will. I think we are just gonna make more terrorists for many more generations on the path we are taking. Is it realistic to believe we will end this through military force alone? What are all the predictable/concievable consequences of taking military action, both long term and short term? And will such action really do anything but justify alot of hurt and pain ? Will this sort of action bring real healing to people, or will it bring a quick fix, the triumphant feeling of revenge? I understand and know a great atrocity has occurred, human history is regrettablly filled with those.
I wasnt jumping on your back Yorrick, I respect you, and I apologize if I seemed like I was attacking you. I saw Tracys post as an example of a non-military way of dealing with hatred for the long term. The tanks DIDNT roll into northern Ireland. A way that possibly brings people closer instead of driving them further apart. The tank metaphor i believe was just a metaphor for how not to react., at least that how i saw it.

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[This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 09-23-2001).]

[This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 09-23-2001).]
 
Old 09-24-2001, 05:27 PM   #44
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
You are deluded if you think legal processes will make any difference on a government that holds western laws in contempt, and cares nothing for what the outside world does or thinks of them.

I'm not advocating violence, but you are advocating inaction. If another 6,500 civilians are killed (or worse) will that be enough to seek prevention? This type of attack is not able to be defended against. Prevention is the key, and it is prevention - under the guise of "justified retaliation" for world eyes - which is being enacted here.

Nope, Yorick. There are more choices and options here than either doing nothing or a large scale military style assault.

Ordinary legal processes have already accounted for hundreds of arrests in countries around the world of people suspected of being in Bin Laden's network. This in a mere two weeks after the event.

As far as Bin Laden holding western law in contempt, well that is his right. Lots of criminals hold law in contempt. They are not required to do otherwise. It makes no difference at all to the law how criminals view the laws. It will come down hard on their poor little heads equally whether they hold it in contempt or not.

What in the world is wrong with making the evidence against Bin Laden public, and convicting him in a court of law, and THEN sending in a small elite force to enforce the court's judgement against him, with terminal prejudice if necessary? Again, why the hasty and UNECESSARY rush to a full scale military war? The whole thing smacks of emotion and panic driven haste, and might very well blow up in our faces.


[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-24-2001).]
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Old 09-24-2001, 07:09 PM   #45
tracey
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G'kar, i'm blushing. thank you for your support

yorick, mandela was a terrorist and killed people. and yes, he may well be forgiving and compassionate now, but he wasn't when he was advocating violence and killing people. but we don't want to get off the point here.

diogenes has hit the nail on the head. criminals of any description don't respect the laws of the land (mine or any other). they break them. i don't always respect the laws either, but the difference is, i don't break them. if i do, i expect to be brought to justice. i may well try to evade it, but i know i'll just be running. the current situation is no different. a crime has been committed, and justice not genocide is the answer.

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Old 09-24-2001, 07:18 PM   #46
Moridin
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:

What in the world is wrong with making the evidence against Bin Laden public, and convicting him in a court of law, and THEN sending in a small elite force to enforce the court's judgement against him, with terminal prejudice if necessary? Again, why the hasty and UNECESSARY rush to a full scale military war? The whole thing smacks of emotion and panic driven haste, and might very well blow up in our faces.
1)Where do we find him when we do convict him? How long should we allow him to find a place to escape and hide
2)How many more attacks will be made in the time it takes us to convict him, find him, extradite him, and imprison him?
3)Who said this is a FULL SCALE MILITARY WAR? We've barely scratched the surface of our military capability...yet everyone is talking like this is WWII all over again

We are not going after a man with a knife here...we cannot treat him like a common criminal! He used three of our planes to kill 6300+ innocents, and you want to treat him like he robbed a Seven Eleven


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Old 09-24-2001, 09:32 PM   #47
John D Harris
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moridin:
1)Where do we find him when we do convict him? How long should we allow him to find a place to escape and hide
2)How many more attacks will be made in the time it takes us to convict him, find him, extradite him, and imprison him?
3)Who said this is a FULL SCALE MILITARY WAR? We've barely scratched the surface of our military capability...yet everyone is talking like this is WWII all over again

We are not going after a man with a knife here...we cannot treat him like a common criminal! He used three of our planes to kill 6300+ innocents, and you want to treat him like he robbed a Seven Eleven


I LOVE IT MORIDIN I'll quote my favorite part
3)Who said this is a FULL SCALE MILITARY WAR? We've barely scratched the surface of our military capability...yet everyone is talking like this is WWII all over again




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Old 09-24-2001, 09:35 PM   #48
Grand-Ranger
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moridin:
1)Where do we find him when we do convict him? How long should we allow him to find a place to escape and hide
2)How many more attacks will be made in the time it takes us to convict him, find him, extradite him, and imprison him?
3)Who said this is a FULL SCALE MILITARY WAR? We've barely scratched the surface of our military capability...yet everyone is talking like this is WWII all over again

We are not going after a man with a knife here...we cannot treat him like a common criminal! He used three of our planes to kill 6300+ innocents, and you want to treat him like he robbed a Seven Eleven


AMEN!

Those words say it all.


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So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be

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May a pregnant yak chew on your ear for all eternity.

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Old 09-24-2001, 10:09 PM   #49
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moridin:
1)Where do we find him when we do convict him? How long should we allow him to find a place to escape and hide
2)How many more attacks will be made in the time it takes us to convict him, find him, extradite him, and imprison him?
3)Who said this is a FULL SCALE MILITARY WAR? We've barely scratched the surface of our military capability...yet everyone is talking like this is WWII all over again

We are not going after a man with a knife here...we cannot treat him like a common criminal! He used three of our planes to kill 6300+ innocents, and you want to treat him like he robbed a Seven Eleven


In answer to your questions:

1)If we didn't friggin advertise we were coming after him with our military right now, and showed a little patience and craft, we probably would have a much better chance of actually catching him. And that can be at any time before or after he is actually convicted (i.e. anytime), so long as we have sufficient evidence (probable cause) to believe he is guilty (and if we don't already, why in hell are we calling out the military to go after him anyway!!!!)
We should "allow" him only so long as it takes to actually catch him, obviously! Good luck catching him now with the current method!!!!!

2) See # 1 above. As for the technical mechanics of an indictment, it could be done tomorrow, or could have been done already (it's just a friggin piece of paper making allegations!!!!) provided we really do have sufficient evidence of his guilt (and again if we don't, what the hell are we doing right now!!!)

3) Yes, I am painfully aware that America is quite capable, in the name of really all out full scale war, destroying pretty much the whole human race. Yes, compared to that extreme possibility, the deaths of innocent Afghanis might seem but a poor drop in the bucket. That does seem to be the reprehensible mentality of so many of my countrymen.

Finally, I do not consider anyone who commits the heinous crime of Murder to be "a common criminal," particulary not someone who murders so many people. Nor do I view this as like "robbing a 7-11." (Though I certainly do not take robbing a 7-11 as the minor offense you imply it is) Clearly it warrants the Death Penalty. Do you not agree? What else does your approach promise to give him, huh? Something greater than Death? Tell me what it is, I want to know.

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Old 09-24-2001, 11:24 PM   #50
G'kar
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moridin:
1)Where do we find him when we do convict him? How long should we allow him to find a place to escape and hide
2)How many more attacks will be made in the time it takes us to convict him, find him, extradite him, and imprison him?
3)Who said this is a FULL SCALE MILITARY WAR? We've barely scratched the surface of our military capability...yet everyone is talking like this is WWII all over again

We are not going after a man with a knife here...we cannot treat him like a common criminal! He used three of our planes to kill 6300+ innocents, and you want to treat him like he robbed a Seven Eleven


We treated timothy mcvieh like a criminal because he was one.He killed over 200. Are we gonna do a body count to determine how bad a terrorsist act is, and determine the recourse by it as well. yes mcviegh was an america, in america and under our juristicion , before some one uses that as logic I'll use it to point out we still used due and fair process.

All it takes is a small fire to start an inferno.



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