We have had this discussion before... (CEP related)

[Mozenwrathe]

How hard would it be for certain weapons in the CEP to be relabeled under previously existing items in order for weaponmasters and other characters to get greater benefits from them? The examples I have in mind are the following:

Sai = daggers, kukri, or kama. (mainly for monks to be able to use them immediately)

Nunchaku = light flail, club, or kama. (once again, I am aiming for the monks, so I would put them under kama. sure, it would go against the initial nature of the weapons themselves as they are NOT cutting weapons, but then the monk would get their special benefits with the nunchaku.)

Katar = daggers or kama. (they are just fists of steel literally. so a lot of the thinking here is essentially based on how large the katar in question would be. If they were small - under two inches - then I'd place them under daggers. Otherwise they would go under kama.)

Maul = ??? (really and truly, the mauls are warhammers which require two hands, but the two handed weapons around are the scythe, the large flail, the greatsword, and the quarterstaff or magestaff. The staff weapons are held wrong, the greatsword and the scythe are cutting weapons, and the large flail is a chain weapon. still, at least the large flail is a blunt weapon and therefore one could try to slide the maul into that position.)


Secondly, if one did that, what would be the end result? Would the animations change? Would the weapons automatically replace other weapons already in the module, or could they co-exist? Would it be worth all the trouble to do all those renames of weapon types JUST to get the bonuses, or would it be easier to redesign any of the CEP weapons placed in a module with extra bonuses to make up for their hardcoded drawbacks?

[robertthebard]

I think to change the base item types, you'd have to change the .2da files. Sounds easier than it is, though. Essentially, just as a note, katars are daggers, and some of the ones that I have actually seen approach 12 to 14 inches in length. They are light weight, and relatively small, but they are far from tiny.

[Mozenwrathe]

The most important part for me would that characters could get the full bonus for all of these items. Sure, the trident essentially is a spear, but could one really rename it as a spear? Possibly, but then how does one "softcode" in a pinning attack? Give all of them "Improved Knockdown?| Or for the sai, would you give all sai "Disarm" and a bonus to defense to reflect what they can do? For me, this is all stuff I do not know and would like to. For a more accurate look on what I was thinking of:


sai - bonus to Parry, secondary Armor Class bonus while in Parry mode, "Disarm" (dagger or kama)

nunchaku - bonus to Parry, "Disarm", chance to Stun, chance to Daze (kama just because of the bonuses monks get, technically light flail but then you could not use two of them at the same time)

katar - "Called Shot", chance for Wounding (kama for monk bonus, dagger otherwise)

maul - chance for Stun, chance for Death Attack, chance for Daze (large flail because there is no way you are supposed to dual wield anything with this, or greatsword if you felt like it)


http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewto...&forum=83&sp=0
found this link while looking for an answer...

[ 04-27-2006, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Mozenwrathe ]

[robertthebard]

This is the trick, there are feats that you can apply to specific weapons with the toolset, w/out changing the .2da's. The thing with the sai for example:
You can add a bonus to parry to the sai, and it will only work while the sai is equipped, and add a deflection bonus to the weapon for the ac. However, if you have items equipped that max out your deflection bonus; limit is +12, then that won't stack, and that is hard coded. For disarm, you could try to apply disarm (whip) to the weapon, or maybe add the feat. All of this can be done in the toolset, without creating an extra hak file for it. However, it would not change the base item type. Sai should be daggers, not sure what they are listed as, probably as sai. A convenient work around, you can make a dagger look like a sai.

Note that the similar functions would carry on on down the line. You won't get a Death Attack with a maul though, death attack cannot be added, sneak attack can, but...
Wounding property can be added in the toolset. I'm going to go look at some of this stuff, I'll post up what I find, and maybe a couple of screens of completed stuff.

[Mozenwrathe]

Thanks for the assist, RTB. I am currently working on a project involving LETO: how the heck to finally make all those cool characters you see on the NWVault. You know, duplicates of Drizzt Do'Urden, or have a hill giant with terrifying intelligence and that casts spells. Something I wanted to try to toy with, as I had some novel character concepts and wanted to see how to implement them via NWN itself directly.

I was figuring a Death Attack with the maul for the paralysis inflicting factor. I thought you could add Death Attack as an ability via the toolset editor, that or either Vorpal (which would go for the instant kill) or a set of spell effects that could duplicate the sheer crushing damage. Problem is if you use magic for the maul, creatures immune to magic would not suffer the same effects as other creatures would. For example: since when are skeletons immune to being pounded to bits?

For the sai, I surmise it would be better to have the deflection effect limited to a Parry bonus and perhaps Deflect Arrows. The Armor Class bonus would only be in effect while the character was actively defending themselves anyway, so that could easily be substituted by a spell effect which would be able to be cast (sort of) at will.

I would assume that the katar and the nunchaku ideas are not as farfetched as I thought they might be? All of these weapons (as far I can recall) are currently listed as the names presented here, and therefore ineligable for any benefits or specialized feats via regular means. Sai are listed as sai - that I remember well. I still like the idea of nunchaku under the kama listing so they may share in the bountiful bonuses monks receive. Of course, the issue for me would be to discover if renaming their category (under kama) would make them slashing damage automatically. If so, then one would have to then find a way to duplicate the damage as bludgeoning and remove the initial damage at the same time, just to make sure the character wasn't dealing out double damage without meaning for them to.


Oh, and have you seen THIS?
http://www.nwnctp.com/index.php?categoryid=10
Never heard of them before, but it definitely makes sense for a group of this nature to exist.

[ 04-27-2006, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Mozenwrathe ]

[robertthebard]

http://robertbard67206.com/files/Fake_Sai.jpg

Here's the closest to a sai I could get a dagger. The sai has two distinct disadvantages, one, you cannot specialize with it, and two, it's already exotic, which means you are required to take another feat to even use it. Unless you choose the gladiator package, I believe they get that feat for free at char creation. I'll be back in a minute to add a shot of an actual sai, for comparison.

Presto:

http://robertbard67206.com/files/Sai_2.jpg

[ 04-27-2006, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: robertthebard ]

[Mozenwrathe]

In other words, it can be done then. That... that is a good sign. It would allow for monks to use them at character creation for one thing, without having to take an extra feat to work with them. I think you brought up that issue with Dwarven Waraxes not being available to dwarves at character creation because they are "exotic" weapons. And since that is hardcoded, they have to be left exactly where they are.

Is it possible to do that same "illusion" with the nunchaku, though? I know the nagamaki uses the scythe, the pu'dao uses the halberd, and the nodachi uses the greatsword (as it should).

[robertthebard]

Not sure what I could base it on. They are kind of unique, in their two clubs chained together kind of way.

There's nothing to make a fake version of them out of. No specializing, but they can be edited in the tool set to give things like disarm, etc. Unless somebody alters the .2da on em, they are stuck like they are.

[ 04-27-2006, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: robertthebard ]

[Mozenwrathe]

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewco...l?post=4037199
(I could not get the post itself to line up properly...)

That is one person's concept of where they could all go. For me, I would rather the nunchaku go into kama where they could be dual wielded, or at least club. Still, here is the thread where I got this from:
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewto...orum=83&sp=105

[ 04-27-2006, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: Mozenwrathe ]

[Stratos]

Heh, some of those bonuses are a bit overpowered, in my opionion.