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Old 02-17-2004, 11:11 PM   #1
SixOfSpades
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After much too much time in the making, my Review is finally complete, and up on the Web here.

Please use this space to discuss your views on what I have to say, analyze my suggestions, criticize my critique, and generally tell me that I'm full of beans.

Threads have also been started at
Forgotten Wars (home of Kelsey and Unfinished Business, among many others), and
FW Studios (Weimer's own "home forums").
But as Ironworks is my own home base, this will be the master thread, and if you want me to read whatever you post, this is where I'm most likely to see it.

[ 02-17-2004, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]
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Old 02-18-2004, 01:44 AM   #2
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Fine bit o' work ya got there, Mr. Spades.

I'll do something more in-depth when I've had a few hours of sleep, but I gotta say this now: the one-minute reviews just ain't doin' it for me. You repeat certain bits of information, like the "you can't go back the way you came in" bit, which was cute the first time around, but after cutting and pasting that line for the fifth time, it became annoying. Other than that, I found it an enjoyable read, and this will no doubt become the barometer for future Tactics endeavors, as well as possible starting points for improvement.
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Old 02-18-2004, 02:04 AM   #3
Odruith
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I really enjoyed your review, Six, I myself have tried to start SoA-->ToB with my favourite evil fighter/thief char.

I have, the patches and fixpacks, Ascension, Tactics, Sola, item upgrades, Valen, Chloe, Tashia, Kelsey, Unfinished Business, the thief fix pack, the improved shadow thief hall, the banter pack, imp planar sphere and the flirt packs installed

It's alot of MODS at once. But they all add to the game. However, I have found for my starting party, I often use Shadow Keeper to edit my characters stats to mirror those I had with my Dwarf fighter at the end of Bg1 as well as Exp, Because I deleted all my bg1 saved games unfortunately. Alot of people might consider that wrong, but I did play Bg1 through and get all the tomes and increases and had a good 130k-150k exp for my main character and several others through doing as many quests in TDD+TotSC as possible.

However, EVEN with those edits to make it as though I'd just finished BG1, I did find the start of SoA with tactics excruiciating. Because I was constantly killed by Shadow Thieves and thought.. this is the heart of Irenicus' dungeon. How did the thieves get through the portal?

And Ilyich? .. Ugh. That was extremely hard. Because as a player.. I don'tlike to rest every five minutes to memorise spells. I find it silly Roleplay wise. So I like to set my spells in place and when in that particular dungeon, don't RPly say.. hey, guys, lets go to sleep for 8 hours on the off chance the shadow thieves will survive long enough to keep Jonny Busy! Because in the real situation there is no time. But with Imp Ilyich and those shadow thieves, the dungeon becomes one long line of reloads for me.

Other things in tactics have had me annoyed before as well. Such as when I get the shadow thief guild hall and go to meet Ama. What happens ? A random Ambush. Which at the level I'm usually at kills at least one of my characters and has the rest running around trying to kill both Ama *and* the ambush.

Tactics I've found to be a great MOD, but extremely overpowered on core rules as you said. Because even Mae'Var... that was hell for me. Because een with a moderately good level 11 party he presented a huge problem.

I pickpoketed ALL of the assassins of their healing potions and bows, thinking no more backstabs, no more trouble. I pickpocketed Mae'Var and the priest of Cyric, too. But what happened? The thieves ran out even without being able to go Invis and just diced me. And I couldn't run to reset my buffs, my party just crumbled before my eyes.

In short, you're full of beans. And I agree with alot of what you said. Certain areas are too overpowered. Making it less of a game and more of a chore to sit down and just enjoy it.
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Old 02-18-2004, 04:37 AM   #4
Xen
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Nice work! I have to study now so I`ll report my wiews later.
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Old 02-18-2004, 05:11 AM   #5
Dundee Slaytern
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Very comprehensive, but just some FYI.

The muggers you encountered in the "Lich in the Docks" component is not part of the component. They are part of the default game.

Triggers & Contigencies cannot be used by the script. You have to manually use it. Strange but true. You still have a point about infinite castings of them though.

Other than that, very comprehensive. I am currently going through the game with a Neutral Evil Plain Fighter and a party. Planning to dual her to a Cleric at level 13.

STR: 15
DEX: 18
CON: 10
WIS: 18
INT: 10
CHA: 15

Pondering on what to do with Small Teeth Pass.
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Old 02-18-2004, 08:06 AM   #6
Xen
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Have you ever seen Dual-Class Anti-Paladin to Mage at level 13? That was one killing machine.
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Old 02-18-2004, 08:31 AM   #7
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Quote:
200,000 to 300,000 EXP
I think you meant 20 000 to 30 000 EXP. Almost a million EXP in the beginning dungeon...
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Old 02-18-2004, 09:18 AM   #8
Xen
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Not to the topic at hand.

Quote:
Improved Ilyich: Much more of a pain in the ass than it deserves to be. I really don't want to suffer through this every damn time I roll up a new character. A better name would be "Improved Ilyich and some Cheating Shadow Thieves Join Forces Just to Discourage You from Playing this Game." Grade: D.
While I agree that Improved Ilyich (II) is a good thing and makes first dungeon crawl very interesting and that Shadow Thieves (like most things in Tactics Mod cheat) I don`t like Weimer`s idea about high levels of that gang. And they too cheat. Imagine my face when I saw Deva wich was summoned by Rasputin wich has Vorpal Hit and sees trough invisibility. And you need a +3 weapon to hit the Demon IIRC. Sure Kamarazov has bow but considering that Player1 isn`t smart enough to build the "Divide&Concqour" tactic and wants to fight all toughter I don`t know how one can survive.

Quote:
The Ritual: A good, solid quest involving some nicely challenging fights, and with lots of good dialogue and backstory, too. On the downside, it forces you to Reload over and over again--not necessarily in order to win, just in order to figure out what the heck is going on. Grade: B+.
The Ritual is also very interesting quest. But I think that some lines of Pontifex are just too damn spoilable. The Ritual itself is interestingly build but the fact that you can`t really rest (you rest 8hrs and you fail the mission) and that the enemies are ridiculuisly hard you have to Reload like 6+ times in order to make things right. Then there is our friend Pontifex who would give Jonny Boy a good run for his money. Not only that he auto-buffs to his teeth he also is illegal Chain Contigency wich includes Time Stop. Also he can use ever cheesy Dimension Door spell.

Quote:
Improved TorGal and De'Arnisse Keep: Makes the Keep a respectable challenge for a mid-level party (i.e., no more "Let's go rush to the Keep!" candy-store games), but even then, TorGal is too powerful--you won't be able to safely recruit Nalia until your party is around Level 13. Grade: B-.
This is good add-on. I am not sure if this is a bug of Tactics but sometimes those Trolls just raise from dead and attack you again. (For another 12 000 EXP)
Improved Tor`Gal is just a little too powerful. The fact that he is invisible is just insane. Without True Sight there is a little option for Player1 to actually hit him. Sure you can still use Glitterdust but what if you don˛t have it? And also his "helpers" and his insane regeneration rate is out of order for low-level party.

Quote:
Improved Sahuagin City: Turning the Underwater City into less of a "Step right up, getcher Cloaks and Quest Experience heah!" pleasure outing is a good thing. Turning it into a painfully slow, laborious "You'll have to kill us one at a time, and God help you if you didn't buy the Shield of Cheese" slogging session, however, is a bad thing. Grade: D+.
Totally agree here. Those guys can drain you through Stoneskin. OUCH!
But for example if Player1 is newbie and wants to rush for Imoen and doesn`t know about the Shield Of Reflection this guys would be total oblivion for him.

Quote:
Improved Bodhi: Overpowered. Not ulcer-inducingly so, but still overpowered. And for some reason, Weimer seems to think that she's a god in her own right. Grade: C.
Overpowered? Yes. The fact that she uses Dimension Door and has crazy attacks and undispellable Fire Shield(Blue) isn`t user-friendly.

Quote:
Improved Irenicus: Makes the final battle MUCH cooler, making you finally respect Irenicus's intelligence and creativity. But then the fight goes on....and on....and the coolness factor wears off rapidly. Plus there's the fact that the challenge is overpowered, especially since it uses ToB abilities in a battle that is still technically SoA. Grade: C+.
I concur that this is a good improvment but I don`t like Irenicus`s Mage Book. Even Mage as powerful as he is would run out of spells some day. I dislike Infinite Spells. He would be better Improved Sendai`s script.

Quote:
Improved Guarded Compound: Battles that pull the "For some reason, you can't go back the way you just came in" cheese automatically suck. The fight itself is quite respectable, it's a shame they cheat. Grade: B-.
Nothing is improved here. OK it is but not to degree that I tought it will be. Shame on them.

Quote:
Improved Twisted Rune: A kickass brawl that emphasizes the fact that low-level parties have no business trying to take down the HQ of such an organization. They cheat a bit, of course, but they deserve to. Grade: A-.
Not sure here what to say. They are good and all but they are pretty much the same.

Quote:
"Kuroisan," the Acid Kensai: As long as you bear in mind that this guy is a PARODY--that Weimer created him in response to "A Kensai->Mage wearing all the best equipment is invincible," you should do all right....after enough Reloads to teach you about his oh-so-cheesy sword. Grade: C+.
This guy is good. He can be beaten with usage of cheese but Player1 doesn`t know cheese. What can I say? Those who like Kensai->Mages so much? Taste your poison.

Quote:
"Red Badge" Poison-Based Encounter: Okay--they attack you for apparently no reason whatsoever, you absolutely need Reload knowledge and/or at least 3 Level 9 spellslots to beat them, and all for a weapon that nobody but a dyed-in-the-wool powergamer would ever use. At least Kuroisan has some character and conversational skills. Grade: F.
I dislike this encounter. You are summoned and don`t have time to buff. They see trough invisibility and one of them cheats with Project Force wich I absolutely hate.

Quote:
Gebhard Blucher's Lich in the Docks: Battles that pull the "For some reason, you can't go back the way you just came in" cheese automatically suck. At least this one doesn't require your entire party to enter at once. And boy, I remember the days when Liches actually had to *cast* their spells from memory. Guess I'm showing my age. Grade: C.
This fight is heavy. I mean you enter and can escape. You are taunted:"Death awaits you. But not *I*!"
She-Lich is casting spells form scrolls making her casting undisruptable. No you`ve guessed it - I don`t like her either,but she is good add-on. But again too powerful for low-level wondering party.

Quote:
Gebhard Blucher's Improved Mae'Var: Battles that pull the "For some reason, you can't go back the way you just came in" cheese automatically suck. Again, you can select whom you want to send in, and through which door, too. Mae'Var now makes you respect how cheesy Illusion spells can be, and makes you wish that your Warriors could have a THAC0 as low as his Thieves. Grade: B-.
Not much is changed. Those Shadow Thieves can be a pain in the rear. I once was bacstabbed for 400+dmg and I was chuncified. Usually Thieves can hit sh*t but "Shadow Thieves" hit almost anything. Without cheese and True Sight or low level party... good luck.

Quote:
Gebhard Blucher's Improved Demon Knights: A little cheesy, but understandably so. You'll have to give them a little respect now. Grade: B+.
I agree they are a little cheesy but those Fireballs are pretty deadly.

Quote:
Kensai Ryu's Tougher Kangaxx and Guardians: A difficult fight, guarded by a somewhat cheesy fight. Justifiably increases the challenge of obtaining The Ring, but (unjustifiably) makes it more difficult to do so without losing party members. Grade: B-.
Some of this guys I don`t like. That Dwarf is freaking killing machine. It has more hitpoints then God knows which Bhaalspawn,has a Vorpal Sword (wich is surprisingly undropabble) and that means that without a Death Ward you are pretty much toasted. Those two Liches are also a pain in the rear.
Kangaxx himself is cheesy too. Infinite spells,11554 Imprisonments per round and among other buffs he has Psyhical Mirror. (Cleirc Spell) So you can`t hit him with Arrows. So suddenly his is Undead Mage/Cleric?

Quote:
Kensai Ryu's Gnome Fighter/Illusionst: He's too difficult for where he is in the game (he blocks a Lawful Good-oriented party trying to roleplay their way to Imoen), he's a suicidal idiot when it comes to spellcasting, and then there's the matter of his cheating Familiars. Grade: C-.
Bah! This guy is a total pushover for that stage of the game. Example: yound adventures are exploring the house and suddenly that guy shows up. He starts bombariding with spells everything that crawls and goes. ADHWS,PfMWs... etc sure isn`t a problem for 10 level party right?

Quote:
Kensai Ryu's Improved Crypt King: Allows the poor sap to summon Skeleton Warriors. Definitely not overpowered--the difficulty of the fight depends more on the presence of Improved Undead than Improved Crypt King. My sole complaint is that the guy still isn't a respectable opponent. Grade: B.
Little more logical. Now he can actually summon Skeleton Warriors. Bohoo! If he is a King I would except from him to summon Liches not those brainless pigs.

Quote:
Ishan's "Always Toughest Random Spawns in Dungeons:" How overpowered this is depends on which areas you tackle first. If you know where to go to avoid Liches, Spirit Trolls, and Greater Mummies, it's safe. If you want to play a Ranger, or recuit Mazzy or Nalia, however, installing this will instantly transport you up shit creek. Since that was not a place I wished to be, I didn't install this. Grade: N/A.
Overpowerd IMO. Since you will always encounter Lich becuase of this you can be doomed.
To each his own about this.

Quote:
Gebhard Blucher's Random City Encounters: Decent little fights--much better than the pathetic Muggers who didn't even know to stay the hell away from a Level 17 party. Unfortunately, the last set of bad guys is too strong, and for the most part can only be beaten by cheese, leaving a pretty sour taste in my mouth. Grade: B-.
I like it altough F/M`s and other opponents are sometimes just a little too much coming straight out of Irenicus` Dungeon.

Quote:
Kensai Ryu's Random Wilderness Encounters: An extremely irregular component: It only triggers an ambush on roughly 2% of your trips out of town. Of those, most are fights that range from a cakewalk to a good challenge--and then there's one fight that you simply cannot be expected to win. Grade: D+.
All good but when you are travelling in the wilderness and suddenly on your big surprise a Dragon telepots behind your back and you don` even have time to prepare most of your party will be killed by Dragon`s Breath. No thank you.

Quote:
Improved Undead: Some of their new abilities are logical and quite balanced. Then again, some are overpowered, and some are completely nonsensical. Grade: C-.
I like it but casting Black Blade of Disaster is just a little too much for my liking. Overpowerd in this case IMO.

Quote:
Improved Golems: Golems huckin' rocks be good. Not perfect, but better than they were before. Grade: A-.
Nothing special but better this then nothing.

Quote:
Gebhard Blucher's Improved Mind Flayers: Finally, Illithids get back their long-lost ability to see the Invisible. More and weirder Psionic abilities are decent--but what's this about being able to manipulate physical reality? And casting Wizard spells with 0 casting time? Nuh-uh. Grade: C-.
The idea of them sensing even those who are invisble is fine but casting their spells and/or attacking with Mind Attacks like they have mini-gun instead of brains.

Quote:
Smarter Dragons: The cheese factor of this component varies dramatically from Dragon to Dragon. The weaker ones are almost unchanged, while those later in the game pull all sorts of overpowered crap--10 Wing Buffets per Round and the like. Grade: B-.
So-so. Like SoS puts it, it depends on the Dragon. But you can still use damn traps no matter how smart they are. As long as they don`t see you. What a challenge is that, huh?

Quote:
Xyx's Smarter Beholders: Removes (I think) the Shield of Balduran cheese, and for some bizarre reason makes Beholderkin masters of melee combat. Whatever. Also lets Hive Mothers cheat themselves infinite spells. Grade: B-.
I don`t think it removes the Shield Of Balduran cheese. At least in my game. Hive Mothers are overpowered. Infinite Heal,Stoneskin,... spells are too much. Even they aren`t Jon Irenicus.

Quote:
Kensai Ryu's Smarter Vampires: The changes that Ryu implemented do make sense--but, if anything, killing Vampires has never been easier. Grade: B.
Some nice changes had been made but nothing drastic IMO. Everybody with the Amulet Of Power can still laugh at them or just chucnks them with Tun Undead. Next please!

Quote:
Slightly Smarter Mages and Liches: The Mages in the game now have scripts that auto-cast a ton of defensive spells for them, and whole barrages of Sequencers and Contingencies, whether the Mages have those spells memorized or not. I hope you've got lots of Breaches ready. The Liches, however, even rob you of the ability to protect your weaker party members. Joy. Grade: B.
I dislike this affect. They just buff up even if they don`t have their spells memorised. A good example of this is our dear Nalia. Nuff` said.

Quote:
Fighter-Class Archer Kit: A very nice addition, giving gamers more roleplaying scope. Allows the Archer->Mage (one of the few class combinations even cheesier than the Kensai->Mage), but apart from that, only slightly more powerful than the standard Archer. Grade: A-.
I like this.

Quote:
Anti-Paladin Kit: Obviously overpowered, so the only reason I installed it is that I heard it buffs up the Githyanki. Go ahead and play one, if being munchkin is your thing. Grade: C-.
Overpowered? Maybe,maybe not. For example Inquisitors are more powerful. They are almost the same but they can cast Clerical spells. From where I stand here Inquisitor triupmhs. But the fact that Anti-Paladin dispells with every weapon is just sick.

Quote:
Göran Rimén's Improved Nymphs: More of a bugfix than anything else. My only complaint is that they'll follow you around even if you want them to stay still. Grade: A.
Nothing more to add here.

Quote:
Kensai Ryu's Improved Copper Coronet: So minor, it's difficult to tell it's even there. Worthwhile, though, and I'd like to bow down in thanks, because I have now finally seen the Gorf the Squisher quest work the way it was supposed to work. Grade: A.
I played it and tought... heck did I install that component or not? *checks*
I did. But what the hell is diffrent? A little.

Quote:
SimDing0's Improved Oasis: The enemies are certainly more respectable than the original "Duh, let's just sit here until they come kill us," but frankly I was hoping for more. I mean, 95% of them still don't even have Helmets, for Pete's sake. That must be why there's already an Improved Oasis 2. Grade: A-.
I agree.

Quote:
Mike Barnes' Improved Small Teeth Pass: Oh, boy, I sure do love Reloading twenty times until I manage to get one where no party members are killed beyond resurrection in the first 2 rounds. I also love the fact that abusing Reload knowledge is practically the only way to survive this festering cesspit. Grade: F.
Don`t like it. You`ll get hit by Dragon`s Breath even if you are on the other side of the map. What fun!

Quote:
Mike Barnes' Improved North Forest: Quite well done--the Drake is a little odd, but all the enemies are now appropriate for Chapter 6. Finally. Grade: A.
Like it but too easy.

Quote:
Mike Barnes' Marching Mountains: Okay, it does do exactly what it claims to--but frankly, I think Chinchilla & Company are more fun. It's just a question of who you prefer fighting: The tough or the weird? Grade: A-.
Like it ... not really. How on earth will stupid Fire Giatns with a brain of a pigeon cast Stoneskin? No thank you.

[ 02-18-2004, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Xen ]
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Old 02-18-2004, 10:17 AM   #9
Dundee Slaytern
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Xen. Inquisitors cannot cast Clerical spells.

----

I forgot to mention something about Pontifex earlier on. Given the nature of his dialogue, I believe the intention was to make the quest a parody of stereotypical AD&D adventures (of the "save the world" kind).

Hence no comprehensive background story.
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Old 02-18-2004, 10:19 AM   #10
Bill26
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Has anyone ever made a saving throw against fear or paralization in chapter 1?
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