Realpolotik:what happens if given up-yourthoughts.

[J.J.]

OK, brilliant minds of the great escape, here is a realpolitik Q for you.

What happens if the taliban just hand over usama yermama binlauden? They say, oh, gee, you're right, he's just a nasty guy, do what you want.

How many would stop there, instead of prosecuting the war to it's ultimate end years from now, with the additional attacks and casualties? How do you kill the hydra? WE all know you have to kill the body, that the heads will pop up as fast as you wack them. Have any of you heard people talking like that? I am especially interested in the street talk of other places besides the U.S.

UPDATE from the little sister threat assesment center: Near unanimous thought of the brass is that the next attack on U.S. soil will be some sort of biological/chemical type, with ancilliary explosions. Targets of opportunity in rank order: financial/business; pleasure/tourist; university campus.
I was suprised at the last one myself. I guess other than that, they make sense.

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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To

To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.

Originally posted by J.J.: OK, brilliant minds of the great escape, here is a realpolitik Q for you. What happens if the taliban just hand over usama yermama binlauden? They say, oh, gee, you're right, he's just a nasty guy, do what you want.

This does not address the issue of terrorist funding, so simply he's tried in court and the other "Rogue States" are then targetted by the US.

How many would stop there, instead of prosecuting the war to it's ultimate end years from now, with the additional attacks and casualties? How do you kill the hydra? WE all know you have to kill the body, that the heads will pop up as fast as you wack them. Have any of you heard people talking like that? I am especially interested in the street talk of other places besides the U.S.

A better question is what is the ultimate end? What is achievable with military and diplomatic ends towards reducing the threat of terrorism. An invasion of a sponsor state would escalate attacks as the people of that nation would wage a guerilla war against the occupying forces. These people would then be freedom fighters as they are then trying to remove an occupying power.

UPDATE from the little sister threat assesment center: Near unanimous thought of the brass is that the next attack on U.S. soil will be some sort of biological/chemical type, with ancilliary explosions. Targets of opportunity in rank order: financial/business; pleasure/tourist; university campus. I was suprised at the last one myself. I guess other than that, they make sense.

If you are using Biological weapons then why not hit military targets too? Unless the troops are NBC equipped then they would be easy targets, and given the nature of this equipment, it would seriously hamper military operations if troops had to wear it just in case.

just my two penneth



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Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger

[Moridin]

Bin Laden is simply the queen in this RL chess game. Capturing him does not win the war, but does take out a major threat to your pieces. This 'new war' as the media has taken to calling it, is not going to be a full-scale bomb the hell out of anything that stands in your way campaign, it is going to be a well thought out, strategic, subtle attack and withdraw campaign.

It has been my stance for years, that the only way to stave off terrorism is to remove it's funding. It may seem like a simplistic approach, but it is one that I think could be the death blow. We all know that in today's world, things cost money...in this case, a lot of money...without that monetary availability these terrorists will not be able to do much more that hurl a few rocks and molotav cocktails in our general direction...cut off the heads (funding) and you can kill the body (terrorism)...at least IMHO!

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[J.J.]

Sir T, Moridin, you guys pretty much echo my own thoughts, no matter the human endevour, follow the money - nothing gets done without it, and then starving the beast from the source. Eradication is an unrealistic goal, like you said, but a mostly starved beastie is easier to deal with...

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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To

To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by J.J.: OK, brilliant minds of the great escape, here is a realpolitik Q for you. What happens if the taliban just hand over usama yermama binlauden? They say, oh, gee, you're right, he's just a nasty guy, do what you want. How many would stop there, instead of prosecuting the war to it's ultimate end years from now, with the additional attacks and casualties? How do you kill the hydra? WE all know you have to kill the body, that the heads will pop up as fast as you wack them. Have any of you heard people talking like that? I am especially interested in the street talk of other places besides the U.S.

One of the ways we can get rid of the hydra, is to join together to mitigate, and eventually do away with, the causes of terrorism. It would require a completely different way of being in the world for all of us. A rethinking of the way we interact with each other, and countries like to us and unlike us throughout the world. Compassion, and a sense of brotherhood and sisterhood are prerequisites. Instead of personal self interest, we would need to make a radical shift to enlightened self interest - i.e. what is good for the world we live in, is good for us.

The old paradigms are worn out, they are breaking down irrevocably, as witness the chaos and disaster the world over. Our climate is beginning to go haywire, (natural disaster rates are increasing fast), the poor are getting poorer whilst the rich get richer (a cliche, but it is TRUE, I have the figures to prove it), the global economy is looking less than healthy, (even before last Tuesday), our old people are going to far outweigh the ability of our financial system to support them very soon now, there is huge worry about the need for more young people, at the same time, our world population is exploding, and there is huge worry about the planet's ability to support the 9 billion people that are expected by 2030, our oil and gas reserves are finite...but our energy needs are not. They grow with our rapidly expanding population, and that population's increasing need for energy (and all the other natural resources that we are fast running out of.)

Refugees are fleeing in terror from hateful and unjust regimes all over the world. There are more of them every day. So many of our children all over the globe are starving, they are mutilated, they are dying, they are working for unjust employers for tiny amounts of money. Ever greater numbers of women and children, and men, are selling their bodies for just enough money to stay alive. And whilst these things are taking place, we are selling arms, we in the West, to countries all over the globe, helping injustice continue. There is misery throughout the world, a lot of it here in the West, where there are poor, many of them, some of them living in third world conditions.

How far does this have to go before we realise that we cannot go on like this? The paradigm HAS to change, if the future is not to be too dreadful to contemplate. For much of the world, it already is. I am crying as I write this, the combined weight of it all is tearing at my heart. I cannot breathe....

For New York, as for the rest, my tears flow. And yet I can find it in me, (and I so hesitate to say this for fear it will come over as callous or uncaring, which I am not!), I can find it in me to wonder if this wasn't the loudest, more jarring, most painful wakeup call that the West has seen for a very long time.

I pray to the divine within all of us that we will hear and respond to it.

(Please see the post I just put up entitled 'I wanted to share this with you', for some more thoughts (not mine) on this.)


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[J.J.]

Good thoughts, S C, you are right about the paradigm shift required, and the attacks last week is the sort of thing required to wake people up from their everyday lives, and lift their gaze from the rut. I talk to people all over the country, have everyday since last week noticed that so many more are simply more polite over the phone, and very very united in their thoughts and feelings. The desire for war has actually gone up since the attack, from an initial avg. of 82% to around 85-86% desire to attack, and even 72% of the US wishes to attack WITH the knowledge that there would be heavy US casualties. That is a number never before seen in modern America, and the fact that is is solidifying and growing heartens me. But what about other places? Now that the shock has worn a bit, what is being said elsewhere?

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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To

To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.

[J.J.]

bump for more input, please help keep this up for later arrivals


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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To

To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.

[Lifetime]

Speaking of the Hydra..
I do believe Hercules(it WAS Hercules right..) burned the body and destroyed the Hydra with fire

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Proud to be American

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by J.J.: Good thoughts, S C, you are right about the paradigm shift required, and the attacks last week is the sort of thing required to wake people up from their everyday lives, and lift their gaze from the rut. I talk to people all over the country, have everyday since last week noticed that so many more are simply more polite over the phone, and very very united in their thoughts and feelings. The desire for war has actually gone up since the attack, from an initial avg. of 82% to around 85-86% desire to attack, and even 72% of the US wishes to attack WITH the knowledge that there would be heavy US casualties. That is a number never before seen in modern America, and the fact that is is solidifying and growing heartens me. But what about other places? Now that the shock has worn a bit, what is being said elsewhere?

Um, I think you kind of missed my main thrust there, maybe I wasn't too clear - the paradigm shift I was referring to is AWAY from war, not towards it! I am, of course, in favour of attempting to eradicate terrorism. My approach would be somewhat different to the one you are suggesting, however.

I have to go out now, so no time to write more. My viewpoint is summed up in the post 'I'd like to share this with all of you' on the board. Please read it - I hope everyone will. I'd very much welcome your opinion.



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[J.J.]

HEY Memnoch, have you caught the latest reports on the news networks, and the statements of the US Attorney General? He stated that the 4 planes taken were not the only targets planned.

,posted 09-15-2001 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by J.J.:
HOO-RAH! 7+ years in the military, all branches of the army - reserves, gaurd, active duty, reserves, gaurd, in that order. I was a seargent(E-5) THREE different times before i finally got out completely when i was offered the teaching position in my department at Montana State University in fall of '89. My years of active duty were 85-87 in Germany, I was there when Reagan bombed Libya for the Berlin discotheque bombing, and when Chernobyl blew up on it's own. My little sister is a Major in the army now, Intelligence branch. She has been pretty mum about things, and very busy lately, as you might guess. When we spoke last night, she mentioned that, according to the people she spoke with in D.C. since the war began, that the terrorists succeeded in less than half of the actions that they had planned, and there is growing group of people who are "unofficial guests" of various intelligence agencies that the news networks know nothing about, and to whom civil liberties DO NOT APPLY.
Unfortunately, chemical interrogation is the only kind done these days, but if no one knows where you are, they can't ask about you, can they? I hope that they suffer greatly before they are disposed of. Yes, the news has told of the group with delta id and uniforms, but the standard security measured in place did stop more than half of the planned hijackings tuesday morning. It was those individuals who were scooped up by 'agencies' and disapppeared, and from whom we can expect our best, earliest intell. I will pass on other things that i can , when i can, but for those of us here in the states, it is small comfort that it was 4 planes taken, instead of the planned 10.


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Wow. That's incredible news if it's true (no offence . 10 aircraft, eh? That would've been catastrophic if they had succeeded.

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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To

To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.