Cheese Vs Creative

[Black Knight]

So what makes something be a cheese tactic? I believe that it is our minds seeing a big, strong fighters hacking away with their swords as noble, and seeing a mage hiding behind spells and staves as cowardly. I disagree. Try playing an all mage party. I had Female Necromancer with Edwin, jan, Vicky, Korgan, and Jaheria, and for the last three chapters I kicked Korgan out (poor guy, now locked up forever ...) so I basically had all conjurers. Makes your tactics play out a lot differently than most of us are used to. My battles were over really quickly, using all the available shielding, summoned creatures, and different spell combos I could think of. It made me stretch as a player. Gave me new challenges and I'm looking forward to playing the expansion (and as of yet unspoiled about anything, so please, don't. ) Some people say cheese tactic, I say better way using magic as your killing weapon of choice. Comments?

BK

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The Black Storm Cloud of the Night
Consort to a Queen
Champion of Truth, Justice and Cloudy's Way
Captain of the Knights of the Golden Dragons
Heart, Mind, and Soul
Offical Wizard and Warrior Questioner

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[Lifetime]

I guess Cheese is exploiting a grey area in the game's programming, while Creative is finding new uses for a particular spell/weapon/ability.


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Why?

[Throntar]

I guess when I think of cheese, I think of stuff that wouldn't actually happen if this alternate CRPG setting were reality.

For instance, these are "cheese":

• Setting traps all around a neutral person/thing and then attacking them so they go hostile and trip the traps.
• Hitting a neutral opponent with multiple cloudkills until they die while hiding behind the "fog of war" so that the opponent doesn't see you and come after you.
• Casting cloudkill into a room and then slamming the door shut until the enemies die. (Like in a reality situation, a bipedal opponent with opposable thumbs couldn't open a door???)[/list]
  Now...with all of that said, do whatever makes you happy. Cheese away, if that's what you like to do!
  
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  Now where did I leave that doughnut?!

[DonkeyWan]

I made mention of a similar train of thought, I agree with the last mail (with the exception of the door, since there are acceptable varients, e.g. web, cloudkill, run round corner - also, what if you released and then jammed the door?). Mostly hack and slash people complain about cheese tactics, but what do you get out of a game if all your doing is smacking monsters for 300 playing hours? These are people who see quake and its various mindless derivatives as being challenging. The point to BG2 is to utilise magic and see how clever you can be with combos. It amazes me how many people complain about 'cheese' and then say, "hey I dual wield crom faeyr with celestial fury" as if thats any better than door/cloudkill combo's....

When I think of cheese, I think of something yellow with holes that one can eat. When I think of cheese in BG, it would be something like attacking a neutral before it becomes hostile (which would be a bad thing anyway as the person or thing might have something to say), and also doing anything about which you're not sure wheter or not it would be abusing the flaws in the game (and also: abusing flaws in the game).
Being creative would be using spells etc. for things they were not ment or in unusual situations, without being cheesy as well.
Using an all mage party is fine, be it a little unusual. It doesn't really fit in with the description of the mage in which it is claimed magi almost always travel with a group of warriors, but it sounds like fun. The only reason people use differently skilled partymembers is so that they might cover up any gaps in their skills.
BTW, congratulations on getting so far with those low hitpoint characters which couldn't pack a punch with their hands.

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The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew,
and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain.
All the others fled. -J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

All Mage Party????
Been there
Done that
I tell you one thing
A thief/mage sux
Try a Fighter/Thief


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Help me create A Fantasy Realm with your imagination

[SherpaDoug]

I remember using "cheese" tactics in pencil & paper DND.
We commonly threw cloud kill in a room and closed the door. If you wanted to lock the door, just smoosh a handfull of hamburger in the doorjamb and cast flesh-to-stone on the hamburger, call it super-duper glue!
Then there was casting stone-to-flesh on a dungeon wall and hacking your way through with swords.

Beware of using cheese as a derogatory term in Wisconsin, the land of Life, Liberty, Cheese, and the Persuit of Happiness!

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Evil around every corner. Be careful not to step in it!

Sherpa Doug

[RudeDawg]

My defenition, IMHO, is that Cheese Tactics are any that take advantage of the program's flaws, poor AI, or programmer's logic.

The examples noted in the other responses all fit this.

The biggest example, again IMHO, is using the "fog of war" trick to fight big monsters. It is using a flaw in the program ("fog of war") and poor monster AI. (What dragon will stand there when a CloudKill spell starts?)

Now, I disagree with Throntar about the door. I can easily imagaine a party sending in an area spell, slamming the door, and blocking it with EVRYONE. Of course, if the door opens the other way, it doesn't work.

For those munchkins who must, cheese away.

But you'll never know the feeling of accomplishment gained from standing in the middle of the fray, wiping you brow and sword and seeing the fallen bodies of vanquished foes, and knowing that you did it.

I am reminded of the great Lombardi's thoughts:
"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious." - Coach Vince Lombardi

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The RudeDawg
Known in these Forgotten Realms as Perin LightEyes
and my girlfriends, Pamila and Pfil

[Throntar]

Originally posted by RudeDawg: I am reminded of the great Lombardi's thoughts: "I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is the moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle-victorious." - Coach Vince Lombardi

I like many of Lombardi's quotes. Too bad he was a Packer. That just ruins it all. Coming from a Chicago Bears fan, that is...

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Now where did I leave that doughnut?!

[Xod]

Would anyone consider this a cheese tactic:

Fighting the Cowled Wizards in the streets, I would have Yoshimo unload all of his traps in a secluded area away from commoners. Then, I would have a mage move over to the traps and cast a spell. They usually all die immediately.

Is this an exploit? Think about it. You know whenever you cast arcane magic in the streets, a group of Cowled ones will appear right next to you and attack you (except for the first and only warning). It is not a fair fight, or even a fight. But, I don't think that my mage shouldn't be able to cast a stoneskin in the middle of the street without being attacked (or paying an exorbetant fee).