Opening a Can of Worms...

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: quote: Originally posted by Charean: Just wondering if anyone knows a compelling reason why the US needs to go to war right now with Iraq. With all that I have heard, it doesn't sound like an immediate threat.

Maybe a dozen years of UN mandates and resolutions seems like a "rush job" to you, but it doesn't to me. I wonder why the UN hasn't made stronger moves to enforce it's resolutions prior to now.
[/QUOTE]I think the UN mandates references shows us all the genius of Bush's UN address - which turned world perspective on its ear on this issue. Quite impressive to take the big-guy-beats-on-little-guy thing and turn it into a the-evil-guy-keeps-thumbing-his-nose-and-being-evil-and-we-let-him thing.

As well, we're finding out the guy has doubles to protect himself and likely has biological and chemical weapons as well as some rudimentary nuclear capability. Plus, he's maniacal enough to have attempted to kill his own son (which was botched, so his son is now just handicapped).

But, more than any other reason, is MONEY, man. The war on terrorism isn't a true war. We need a true war to turn the economy around. There has *never* been an American war fought outside US borders that has failed to boost the economy. Moreover, anytime we lose focus on the war on terrorism or the upcoming war with Iraq, we start to focus on how Bush is doing with the economy - which is pathetic. If the administration can't keep our attention focused on other things, the next election, as well as upcoming Congressional elections, will be jeopardized for the Reps.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Grojlach: quote: Originally posted by Attalus: Oh, pooh, Horatio, we have all that we need and it's dirt cheap right now.

Dirt cheap? Maybe not for long...

Yamani: oil may hit $100 a barrel. . . Source: Telegraph

[/QUOTE]What we pay in the US for oil is incredibly cheap. It's so cheap in US and Canada to buy gas that it makes me feel guilty. Just so others outside the US can review the info, I will point out that in Chicago, which is usually nearly the most expensive gas in the country, we pay between $1.60 and $1.80 a gallon. Recently I've bought it for $1.35 in other states. There is no other natural resource product on the market that has gotten cheaper since 1990.

When in London, I did the calculation from pounds/litre to dollars/gallon and came up with the figure of over $4.00 per gallon. America's love affair with middle east Nations regarding oil has given us cheaper prices than anywhere else in the world - Canada comes a close second but it has huge national oil reserves to fall back on and is understandably in a better position than the US.

What do other of you folks around the world pay for petrol?

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by Grojlach: quote: Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: [The war on Terrorist isnt just against Al Quaeda and The Taliban. There will be many other countrys that we will go into and hunt terrorist. Is it really that hard to understand?

Well, I'm curious when they will begin with the aggressive anti-abortion terrorists in the world; you know, the kind that bombs abortion clinics and assassinate doctors who dare to perform abortions... And there's plenty of them in the US itself alone. And I doubt if the US is really going to look into the situations with the ETA, IRA and all those other terroristic organizations in Europe, somehow... The War on Terrorism is pretty much a War on the Middle-East at this point.[/QUOTE]People certaintly will go a long way just to make it look like they US is doing something horribly wrong eh?

Of course its in the middle east. Thats where most terror orginzations are. Did you expect the goverment to set up a home front for abortion bomber dierectly after Sept 11th? That wouldnt make to much sence now would it? When was the last time there was a domestic terrorist bombings? Last one I can think of was the pipe bomber that put all the bombs in the mail boxes. And they caught him. So your pretty much complaining about nothing.

The end of your post pretty much is my answer to your post, 'at this point'.

[True_Moose]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: quote: Originally posted by Grojlach: quote: Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: [The war on Terrorist isnt just against Al Quaeda and The Taliban. There will be many other countrys that we will go into and hunt terrorist. Is it really that hard to understand?

Well, I'm curious when they will begin with the aggressive anti-abortion terrorists in the world; you know, the kind that bombs abortion clinics and assassinate doctors who dare to perform abortions... And there's plenty of them in the US itself alone. And I doubt if the US is really going to look into the situations with the ETA, IRA and all those other terroristic organizations in Europe, somehow... The War on Terrorism is pretty much a War on the Middle-East at this point.[/QUOTE]People certaintly will go a long way just to make it look like they US is doing something horribly wrong eh?

Of course its in the middle east. Thats where most terror orginzations are. Did you expect the goverment to set up a home front for abortion bomber dierectly after Sept 11th? That wouldnt make to much sence now would it? When was the last time there was a domestic terrorist bombings? Last one I can think of was the pipe bomber that put all the bombs in the mail boxes. And they caught him. So your pretty much complaining about nothing.

The end of your post pretty much is my answer to your post, 'at this point'.[/QUOTE]Remember a guy called Timothy McVeigh?

[AzureWolf]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: But my point was G.W.B said in the weeks following Sept 11th that we would hunt down countrys that sponsor and habor terrorist. Saddam does just that. So I dont see why its such a big thing to everyone, he said we would over a year ago. The war on Terrorist isnt just against Al Quaeda and The Taliban. There will be many other countrys that we will go into and hunt terrorist. Is it really that hard to understand?

What so your saying what Bushy Jnr tells us we should do then that is the be all and end all of it? So what your saying is we should trade one dictator for another? [img]smile.gif[/img]

"Some people talk of committing a small evil to destroy a greater evil. But no evil is ever justified, if that then doesn't work will you then go to greater measures? And when does it stop, some say not until you have taken the very place of that you wished to stop."

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by AzureWolf: quote: Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: But my point was G.W.B said in the weeks following Sept 11th that we would hunt down countrys that sponsor and habor terrorist. Saddam does just that. So I dont see why its such a big thing to everyone, he said we would over a year ago. The war on Terrorist isnt just against Al Quaeda and The Taliban. There will be many other countrys that we will go into and hunt terrorist. Is it really that hard to understand?

What so your saying what Bushy Jnr tells us we should do then that is the be all and end all of it? So what your saying is we should trade one dictator for another? [img]smile.gif[/img]

"Some people talk of committing a small evil to destroy a greater evil. But no evil is ever justified, if that then doesn't work will you then go to greater measures? And when does it stop, some say not until you have taken the very place of that you wished to stop."[/QUOTE]No you have a choice. You know (or I hope you know, else your a complete idiot) that there is a diffrence Bush and Saddam. And I dont think I said anything at all about have to obey Bush, I said that he gave speaches that we wear going to do this a long time ago. I didnt say ANYTHING about having to participate in it. And you know that I said that AzureWolf.

What about Timothy Mcveigh? The scum was caught and put to death, well deserved I say. Its not like hes running lose bombing clinics every week.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Grojlach: quote: Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: [The war on Terrorist isnt just against Al Quaeda and The Taliban. There will be many other countrys that we will go into and hunt terrorist. Is it really that hard to understand?

Well, I'm curious when they will begin with the aggressive anti-abortion terrorists in the world; you know, the kind that bombs abortion clinics and assassinate doctors who dare to perform abortions... And there's plenty of them in the US itself alone. And I doubt if the US is really going to look into the situations with the ETA, IRA and all those other terroristic organizations in Europe, somehow... The War on Terrorism is pretty much a War on the Middle-East at this point.[/QUOTE]Grojlach, Where we have been able to CATCH the Anti-Abortion terrorists, they are in prison!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I lived in Pensacola, Florida when and Where the first abortion killing happened. I believe he's on deathrow in Starke, Florida waiting his turn to meet his maker!!!!!!!!!!!! And I live 50+ miles from Birmingham, Alabama where the last bombing happened SEVERAL YEARS AGO, the FBI is looking for him and when they catch him he'll be prosecuted. If the State of Alabama gets it's hands on him he'll fry. As for the plenty of abortion killers in the USA, ROTFLMAO in the last 50 years the number of killers can be counted on one hand!!!!!!!!!!!

the IRA is attacking the UK if the UK wants to do something about let them go ahead! our government will help them if they ask. Same for any of the other countries that have terrorist problems! Right now the terrorists we are after are in the middle east, it wouldn't matter if they where in Timbukto, or Antartica we'd go after them and the countries that harbor them!!!!! If your country is having terrorist problems then why doesn't your country go after it's terrorists? And stop the "because the US isn't going after all of the terrorists, even the ones that HAVEN'T attacked the USA" stuff.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by True_Moose: quote: Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: quote: Originally posted by Grojlach: quote: Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: [The war on Terrorist isnt just against Al Quaeda and The Taliban. There will be many other countrys that we will go into and hunt terrorist. Is it really that hard to understand?

Well, I'm curious when they will begin with the aggressive anti-abortion terrorists in the world; you know, the kind that bombs abortion clinics and assassinate doctors who dare to perform abortions... And there's plenty of them in the US itself alone. And I doubt if the US is really going to look into the situations with the ETA, IRA and all those other terroristic organizations in Europe, somehow... The War on Terrorism is pretty much a War on the Middle-East at this point.[/QUOTE]People certaintly will go a long way just to make it look like they US is doing something horribly wrong eh?

Of course its in the middle east. Thats where most terror orginzations are. Did you expect the goverment to set up a home front for abortion bomber dierectly after Sept 11th? That wouldnt make to much sence now would it? When was the last time there was a domestic terrorist bombings? Last one I can think of was the pipe bomber that put all the bombs in the mail boxes. And they caught him. So your pretty much complaining about nothing.

The end of your post pretty much is my answer to your post, 'at this point'.[/QUOTE]Remember a guy called Timothy McVeigh?[/QUOTE]Timothy McVeigh was caught and executed. Iron Ranger IS correct the Last domestic bombings were by a college kid trying to make a smily face in bombings on the map.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: What do other of you folks around the world pay for petrol?

I don't drive any cars myself, but the fact gasoline is several dozens of eurocents cheaper right across the border in Germany and Belgium says it all, I guess. I wouldn't be surprised that gasoline in the Netherlands is the most expensive in the entirety of Europe at this moment.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: People certaintly will go a long way just to make it look like they US is doing something horribly wrong eh?

Kinda like how the US and lapdog Tony Blair are trying to make Iraq look horribly wrong... Wrong enough to ignore UN agreements and start a war, anyways.

Did you expect the goverment to set up a home front for abortion bomber dierectly after Sept 11th? That wouldnt make to much sence now would it? When was the last time there was a domestic terrorist bombings? Last one I can think of was the pipe bomber that put all the bombs in the mail boxes. And they caught him. So your pretty much complaining about nothing. The end of your post pretty much is my answer to your post, 'at this point'.

What I was trying to get at with my words is that I have serious doubts Iraq is really linked that closely to Al Quaida, despite the "proof" they've beaten out of prisoners. That they're trying to find ways to overthrow the Iraqi regime I can understand, but the constant attempts to get more support for an attack by linking it to the WTC disaster I cannot. The muslims in Iraq are far from fundamentalistic, not even close to Bin Laden's beliefs. They may agree with the anti-American sentiments - a legacy of the Gulf War - and may even support Al Quaida financially, but they don't care much for the fundamentalistic beliefs Al Quaida represents. That there are supposed to be Al Quaida training camps just outside of Bagdad, as some claim, doesn't really seems to make much sense; why Al Quaida supporters would travel to Iraq to follow training there instead of in Pakistan or Saudi-Arabia, where they most likely live, is beyond me, and I don't think Al Quaida will be able to find that many recruits among Iraqis. Saddam may be training *something* - which is completely understandable under the threat of war, even though it's against UN resolutions and therefore not allowed - but I don't think it's Al Quaida.

Whether it's really about oil, settling an old family mistake, a way to get more votes or a sincere attempt to rid a country of its dictator without any double meanings I do not know, but attacking Iraq 'in the name of those who perished during the terrorist attacks' or 'to protect the American people' is too simplified politician-rhetorics, more of an excuse for war than anything. The war against Iraq would have been planned either way, even if 911 never happened.

[ 09-28-2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]