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Old 05-25-2007, 12:45 PM   #1
Dancing Virginia
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So I'm in TotL right now and I've been noticing that I use offensive spells quite effectively. My favorite combination is to have my F/D cast entangle and spike stone and my F/M (Illusionist) death fog and fireball. These work like a charm on most undead esp. Drowned Dead and Barrow Wights. However I'm severely deficient in strategy for defensive spells and only moderately efficient with magical buffs (esp potions). I always look at the description of the spells/bottles and say to myself "well that looks useless when I could just power my way through". I'll admit that part of this has to do with the fact that I'm playing on Difficult (not Insane or HoF though at this point in the game I'm sincerely regretting it). However, I'm interested to hear your opinions so I can have some forethought as I move on to the tougher battles in the expansions as well as starting a HoF game (which I plan on doing!).

My party is as follows:

Human Paladin: 22
Human Fighter/Cleric: 9/(high teens)
Human Fighter/Thief: 6/(high teens)
Human Fighter/Druid: 13/(high teens)
Human Fighter/Illusionist: 9/(high teens)
Half Elf Bard: 25

I would be interested to hear how more experienced gamers would modify this party for a HoF run. I'll admit that the power gaming method makes the game a lot less challenging but I'm in love with the idea of taking full advantage of the strengths of any given edition of AD&D rules to maximize my party's potential. What about changing to a pure cleric, thief, druid, and illusionist for a HoF run? Or would my my characters simply keel over in the first fight due to the inherent weakness of only having one tank?

I have yet to get the shapeshifting water elemental feature for my druid. I was told that this was one of the main reasons for taking a druid and its rather late in the game so I feel like an aspect of my druids strengths has been completely lost on this running. At what point do I get this feature? I'll admit that I haven't used shape shifting AT ALL in this game preferring to use my druid as a spell caster and additional melee body due to her high HP and ability to wear armor as a DC.
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Old 05-25-2007, 09:09 PM   #2
Aerich
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To modify the party for a HoF run, I'd lose some of the dual classes and replace them with multiclasses. If doing HoF from the start, this is particularly important because certain druid and cleric spells are extremely effective early in the game (e.g. Call Lightning, Charm Person or Animal, Command, Hold Person, Animate Dead) - and you need everything you can muster, at that point.

Bear in mind that single classes will generally max out their levels, as will low-level dual classes (say, less than lvl 9), if playing HoF.

Having only one dedicated tank is not a weakness in HoF. In fact, it can be an advantage because you only have to pump up one character's AC. However, it is important to have melee-capable characters (e.g. multiclasses including warrior classes) to step in for emergencies and cleanup duty. Damage spells on HoF are proportionally (compared with non-HoF HP numbers) less effective, so it's quite common to have to finish enemies off in melee unless you like resting every 10 steps to rememorize spells.

I would NOT take a bunch of single-class characters, especially a thief. Ideally you want 5 of 6 characters to be good-to-excellent warriors (again, containing 9 or more warrior levels) and 5 of 6 characters to end up being decent spellcasters (paladins and bard included). Plan for flexibility and strength in all areas.

You achieve the water elemental shapechange when your character reaches 15 druid levels.

I classify spells as defensive if they meet one or more of three criteria:

1) Makes it harder for enemies to hit and/or cause damage (e.g. mirror image, stoneskin, prayer, etc - could even include Web, etc here)

2) Causes enemies to lose interest in attacking my characters (summons, enchantments)

3) Protects against certain effects (e.g. Remove Fear, Protection from Fire, etc).

As long as your characters aren't dying or being hit a lot, your "defensive" spell usage is adequate. Tactics (character placement, spell usage) is more important than the spell effects themselves. #2 is often the most important for HoF, since some monsters will hit you hard and often unless your AC is -20 or better. The lvl 7 druid summons Stalker is money in the bank against demons, remorhaz, and other fire-users.

I don't use many potions. I generally have some long-running defensive spells on the party (e.g. stoneskin for the arcane caster, Protection from Evil 10' Radius, Protection from Fire sometimes) and buff up with defensive spells of shorter duration (DUHM, Recitation, Mirror Image, Entropy Shield) when I know I'm in for a fight. That's also when I'd use strength-enhancing potions, Haste, Emotion: Hope, etc as well.

Be warned that several enemies in TotL cast Dispel Magic, meaning that Haste can be dispelled and cause fatigue. I wouldn't pre-cast Haste in TotL - cast it in combat if you must cast it at all.

[ 05-25-2007, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:02 AM   #3
Klorox
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I'm more of a fan of multiclassed characters rather than dual-classed ones. Would you consider playing that way?

With a HoF run, you're going to get so much XP that you'll max out levels. IWD1 has a level cap, not an XP cap (I think it's 30), so a Fighter30/Mage30 is going to be better than a Fighter13/Mage30. I know the grandmastery in weapons narrows the gap (maybe even makes dual classed characters better -- if you are using that weapon type), but the fact that you'll have powers from both classes from the beggining of the game should make the multiclassed characters superior. Also, I'll take ** in many different weapons over ***** in one weapon. In IWD, there are random weapon drops, and you might spend ***** in Axes, but the best weapon youo find is a Sword. That kinda stinks.

Also, I'm not a big fan of Paladins. The holy sword is good, but there are better swords and I think you're better off with another fighter or a multiclassed fighter instead of a Paladin.

This is my best HoF IWD1 party:

1)Gnome Fighter/Thief
2)Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger
3)Elf Fighter/Mage/Thief
4)Half-Elf Fighter/Druid
5)Gnome Fighter/Illusionist
6)Half-Elf Bard

1)I know you don't need two thieves, but when you have that evasion option enabled, the Gnome F/T is a tank (heaviest armor and all!), and a damn good one. He imitates an IWD2 decoy very well. I max out the Traps skill. While you can't disarm them with heavy armor, you CAN detect them. Also, you might find some great light armor, and he's first in line for this.
2)A great spellcaster, who can cast "Charm Animal" quite early (very useful if you play a "HoF from the start" game).
3)Handles all the locks, traps, ect. A good backup spellcaster, and is mostly used as an archer.
4)you NEED Druid spells in this game. They're just so good!
5)This is the main spellcaster. I have him wear armor until you get some decent spells.
6)I actually add the Bard after doing a few things around the town first (like killing a few bugs in the bar basement and a few goblins). I'm just an XP Whore, and a single-classed character doesn't need the xp like the others.
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:30 AM   #4
Dundee Slaytern
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Actually, for a HoF game, the Paladin is easily the best tank to have. There has been several threads that explains this in great detail if you search back in this forum. This is due to their innate abilities and some special items.

In terms of offence, the vast majority of your damage will come from your ranged attacks and spells. Tanks in HoF mode have one role, and one role only. To SURVIVE. Their Defence should never be compromised for marginal gains in Offence.

That additional +5dmg is meaningless when you are dealing with HP in the hundreds and thousands.

Basically speaking, the Paladin and the Bard are the two singleclasses that make sense in a HoF game. For almost everything else, there is the multiclass, of which the Cleric/Ranger is easily one of the best.

If you wish to Dualclass, there is one very sensible option. Dualclassing a Fighter to a Specialist Mage. Those extra spell slots are going to be a Godsend in prolonged fights, especially when you obtain items that MULTIPLY your spell slots.

For example, if you were a multiclassed Mage, you might have four spell slots for Magic Missile. When you gain an item that doubles your spell slots, you now have eight.

If you are a Specialist Mage however, you will now have ten, and the effect gets bigger as you obtain more and more items that add to your Mage's spell slots since all these items are cumulative.

An ideal level to dualclass a Fighter to a Specialist Mage is at Lvl-13. If you don't mind biting the bullet, you can delay it to Lvl-17, and if you are really hardcore, delay it to Lvl-21.

Cheers.
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:51 AM   #5
Klorox
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
Actually, for a HoF game, the Paladin is easily the best tank to have. There has been several threads that explains this in great detail if you search back in this forum. This is due to their innate abilities and some special items.

In terms of offence, the vast majority of your damage will come from your ranged attacks and spells. Tanks in HoF mode have one role, and one role only. To SURVIVE. Their Defence should never be compromised for marginal gains in Offence.

That additional +5dmg is meaningless when you are dealing with HP in the hundreds and thousands.
I agree about the survival being the most important thing, and that the extra damage is really meaningless, which is why I don't agree that Paladin's are a great class. I'll take a multiclassed Fighter/Mage (or better yet, a Fighter/Illusionist) as a tank any day of the week over a Paladin. The F/M gets stoneskin, mirror image, blur, and a few different armor spells. The Paladin gets Protection from Evil.
EDIT: if you could point me to where posters list their reasons for the Paladin being a superior tank, I'd love to read the reasoning behind that thinking.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
Basically speaking, the Paladin and the Bard are the two singleclasses that make sense in a HoF game. For almost everything else, there is the multiclass, of which the Cleric/Ranger is easily one of the best.
Fighter/Mages are very different than Cleric/Rangers, but they're both awesome options. Fighter/Thieves are great too, when you view them as tanks with slightly less HP than a pure Fighter, but enable the 3rd edition pseudo-rules (which include Evasion and Sneak attacks). They do more damage, and take less damage than a pure fighter this way.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
If you wish to Dualclass, there is one very sensible option. Dualclassing a Fighter to a Specialist Mage. Those extra spell slots are going to be a Godsend in prolonged fights, especially when you obtain items that MULTIPLY your spell slots.

For example, if you were a multiclassed Mage, you might have four spell slots for Magic Missile. When you gain an item that doubles your spell slots, you now have eight.

If you are a Specialist Mage however, you will now have ten, and the effect gets bigger as you obtain more and more items that add to your Mage's spell slots since all these items are cumulative.

An ideal level to dualclass a Fighter to a Specialist Mage is at Lvl-13. If you don't mind biting the bullet, you can delay it to Lvl-17, and if you are really hardcore, delay it to Lvl-21.

Cheers.
If you can wait until level 17 or 21, I'll tip my hat to you. Otherwise, I still think you're better off with a Gnome Fighter/Illusionist over a dual classed character. Since we both agree that a great party needs a Bard, any spells an illuisionist can not cast can be cast by this character. There are only a few (2, IIRC) 9th level spells in this game, and an Illusionist isn't barred from either one of them.

I always build my Gnome F/Ill to ** in Dagger, since it'll be the wapon you want him equipped with due to the bonus spells available. They can still get to a very respectable AC with a shield and spells, and since we both agree that damage output isn't the most important thing, I enjoy having him equipped this way.

The multiclassed character will have better saving throws (racial), better THAC0 (Fighter level is capped at 30), better item options (nice helmet for a gnome in this game, although I presonally give it to my uber-tank), and will never have a "down time" where he's treated as a single-classed character.

JMO, there really isn't a wrong answer here, as both characters will be very powerful.

[ 05-29-2007, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Klorox ]
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Old 05-29-2007, 08:29 PM   #6
Aerich
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The paladins get a +2 AC from their protection from evil that stacks with other PfE spells - in that sense, a paladin gets a +2 boost that no other class can attain. Paladins also get +2 to all saves (useful, especially early). Not least, paladins can boost their defensive capabilities with priest spells. Draw Upon Holy Might is as much of a defensive spell as offensive. A very high level paladin can cast Entropy Shield.

There is nothing to prevent having a pally and a F/M in the same party. A multiclass F/M will generally have fewer HP and be more reliant on short-duration spells. A F/M also needs spell scrolls, which might be an issue if you already have one or more arcane casters.

I disagree on your point that F/T make good tanks, for HoF anyway. No self-buffs and less HP than a fighter. F/Ts are better as archer specialists and occasional (emergency) meleers.
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Old 05-29-2007, 09:51 PM   #7
Dundee Slaytern
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As I said, the search function. Just use Paladin as the keyword.

Fighter/Mages are bad as tanks on HoF for a reason. Much of their defensive abilities lies in their spells. If hit by a dispel, the F/M becomes a veritable naked chicken for the roasting.

You can't switch armours during combat, so if-

a) You're wearing Elven Chainmail, you will still have below average AC, but you can forget about tanking already, unless you intend to recast your defensive spells on the frontlines (BAD IDEA).

b) You're wearing a Robe... run boy, RUN.

c) You're wearing Full Plate Mail. You can't recast your spells due to the armour restriction. Then you have just become a worse tank than an unbuffed Paladin.

Furthermore, the Fighter/Illusionist is quite possibly one of the WORST, if not THE worst, choices to make for a tank from a F/M multiclass. You do realise what his opposition schools are, right? This is NOT BG2.

Elven Chainmail can only be gotten in the Severed Hand at the earliest. What are you going to do about tanking until then? Playing without a dedicated tank for so long is just senseless.
~~~~ ~~~~

The Bard should not be used as a backup offensive Mage. The Bard is there to SING, and maybe buff up the party BEFORE a battle. If the Bard stops singing during combat, your frontliners are going to scream.

Cheers.
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:17 AM   #8
Klorox
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aerich:
The paladins get a +2 AC from their protection from evil that stacks with other PfE spells - in that sense, a paladin gets a +2 boost that no other class can attain. Paladins also get +2 to all saves (useful, especially early). Not least, paladins can boost their defensive capabilities with priest spells. Draw Upon Holy Might is as much of a defensive spell as offensive. A very high level paladin can cast Entropy Shield.

[snip]

I disagree on your point that F/T make good tanks, for HoF anyway. No self-buffs and less HP than a fighter. F/Ts are better as archer specialists and occasional (emergency) meleers.
The Gnome will have better saving throws than the paladin, and with the special "shorty helmet" will have a better AC (I'm talking F/T here, wearing plate mail). I can't think of a way to have a better AC without using buffs.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
As I said, the search function. Just use Paladin as the keyword.
Searched for Paladin, only got 293 returns.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
Furthermore, the Fighter/Illusionist is quite possibly one of the WORST, if not THE worst, choices to make for a tank from a F/M multiclass. You do realise what his opposition schools are, right? This is NOT BG2.

[snip]

The Bard should not be used as a backup offensive Mage. The Bard is there to SING, and maybe buff up the party BEFORE a battle. If the Bard stops singing during combat, your frontliners are going to scream.

A F/Ill isn't supposed to be the main tank, they're supposed to be the main spellcaster and backup tank. I don't care about losing Skull Trap (which is the only really good spell I think an Illusionist misses out on), since the Bard will always have a higher casting level anyway. I have no problem with my Bard stopping to cast a spell and then resuming singing right afterwards. What's the point of the spellcasting ability if you're not going to use it?
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:56 PM   #9
Aerich
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The whole point of a pally as a frontline tank in HoF *IS* buffs. Guaranteed, a pally can reach a better AC than a pure fighter, no matter the race.

I don't think a F/Ill should be the main spellcaster and backup tank. I prefer to optimize it as a tank and carry a full mage (not just a bard), preferably a mc, as the primary offensive caster. For me, HoF is all about maximizing spell capability and blending it with capable meleers.

I played HoF with a gnomish F/Ill as my main tank. Dispel isn't really a problem because most non-TotL casters don't cast it with any regularity. It worked out fine for me. I also had two other arcane casters (dc F13/M and mc C/M), so I wasn't losing any power there. It made the transition to full time tank when I reached Kuldahar and bought Mirror Image.

The problem with using your bard to cast in combat is that it takes a full round for the singing effects to kick in again. It's not like IWD2 where the Lingering Song feat allows you to stop singing and cast without losing song effects. When in melee against strong opponents, that 10% resistance to melee damage may actually be more valuable for character survival than most spells your bard can cast.
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:45 PM   #10
Dancing Virginia
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So all things being equal, you all would propose a magic-heavy party? Based on this conversation, what would you suggest in addition to or as a mod for the following:

Paladin
Thief/Illusionist DC (stack in find/disarm traps)
Pure Druid (for Entangle, Spike Stone, Creeping Doom)
Pure Cleric (for buffs and healing)
Bard (for the obvious benefits of War Chant)

I'm sort of thinking of a Cleric/Conjurer or some sort of Ranger combo as a back-up tank. This would make for a magic heavy party but according to the posts that I've read, players seem to rely on casting a lot more in HoF

Two questions:
Can rangers MC or DC as arcane casters?
What are the advantages/disadvantages to MC vs. DC in HoF?

My dual class power gamer thing has served me well thus far but I really want to get more into the nuances of strategy instead of hack and slash.
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