Abortion: Poll and Discussion

[LordKathen]

I am Pro-Life. If the mother is going to die from the child birth, then matters would have to be takin. Pregnancy from rape would constitute counseling and odoption. I think birth control by abortion, as I have known a womon to do this, is sick and wrong, and should be illegal. As far as illegal abortions, thats easy, its murder! Try them as murderers and move on.

I'll hand it to TL, you are brave!

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Rokenn: 4. In all these listed cases they abortion should be funded by the state if the victim can not afford it.

Just so you know, if an indigent woman gets pregnant, her ONLY option is to have the child (though she can give it up for abortion). Though abortion is legal in the US, no government programs exist to pay for abortions for women on welfare. Call it a Republican lobbying victory.

Now, here's what gets my hackles. The only way the majority of people (note: the majority do support a right to choose - it's a statistical fact) would be opposed to seeing a welfare mom get an abortion, as far as I can tell and IMHO, is that it would be spending their tax dollars.

But, notice that the abortion is $300, while delivering the child (with the SAME tax dollars) is no less than $5,000. Plus, delivering the indigent child into the world implicates tens of thousands more tax dollars spend over its young life, beginning with AFDC (Aid for Families with Dependent Children) benefits and WIC (Women's Infanct Care).

Logical????

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

1. How you voted (of course) Pro-choice 2. Why Because I am a man and men have no buisness telling women what to do with their bodies. 3. Whether that conflicts with your religion's stance on the issue Newp 4. Whether your views change with extenuating circumstances (e.g. you do not support abortion but would support it for rape and incest victims, especially when they are young, or in the cases where the mother's life is in danger). and My views will change when men can give birth. otherwise I think that a woman should have a choice. 5. (just for s*ts and giggles) Whether or not you support the death penalty and how, if at all, you see that relative to your abortion stance I completely support the death penalty.It is a bit hypocritical to support one and not the other. Convicts are just as alive as a fetus.

[ 01-27-2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: The Hunter of Jahanna ]

[WOLFGIR]

Interesting to see this one up here again

Oki, here goes.

1. How you voted (of course)
Pro choice.

2. I like it the way we have it here in Sweden (my reference point for at least one very obvious reason) where abortion is legal and considered a right of the mother. She can have it made the first weeks and have some counseling as well. After a certain period, don´t know the exect timing here the mother needs a court rule that allows it by special reasons.

Having been at the IV and seen happy mothers in the same room as mothers who have chosen abortion, having seen mothers perform illegal abortions..

3. I don´t have a religious belief so no, no problem there.

4. Er. well since I´m pro choice I don´t have much to add here.

5. I do not support death penalty.

[Arvon]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: WillowIX, I think the notion of when life begins is not foreign to this discussion, nor should it be ignored. Legally, you cannot have an abortion after the 2nd trimester. Now, often people think that means Roe v. Wade stands for the proposition that a life does not begin until then, or that everything is all wrapped up in the "viability" of the fetus. Generally this is wrong. Roe v. Wade stands for the proposition that the 2nd/3rd trimester cutoff was what 9 Justices could agree on in the 70s.

I want to take issue with your legal statement...What about partial birth abortion? A big issue in congress.

[Aelia Jusa]

1. How you voted (of course)
Pro-choice

2. Why
I believe that it is not only the foetus's chance at life that is important in the choice, but also the woman's right to control her own body. I think there is a difference between using abortion as a contraceptive and terminating an accidental pregnancy that resulted even with the use of contraceptives, and of course as a result of rape.

I think that late term abortion is morally wrong. Like Willow and Timber, I think brain activity is important - foetuses that are 7 months (or earlier?) can learn things in the womb which they remember after they've been born! They are sentient and can survive if they are born at this early stage.


3. Whether that conflicts with your religion's stance on the issue
No

4. Whether your views change with extenuating circumstances (e.g. you do not support abortion but would support it for rape and incest victims, especially when they are young, or in the cases where the mother's life is in danger).
I think basically it is a matter of degree. In the case of rape or incest, not only the mother's feelings are important - stories I have read of people born of rape have to deal with a lot of trauma, knowing their parent was a rapist. Also in the case of foetuses with defects, I think you could argue it is morally wrong not to terminate (in some cases) - their quality of life will be so low that to let them live is unnecessarily cruel. If the mother's life is in danger you must consider what would happen to the baby if it survived and its mother did not. I think that while I support a woman's right to choose, abortion is always unfortunate (as opposed I suppose to *wrong*) but in some cases it is more justified than others

5. (just for s*ts and giggles) Whether or not you support the death penalty and how, if at all, you see that relative to your abortion stance.
I don't support the death penalty because of the margin for error, the fact that I think life in prison (real life term, not 20 years) is a worse punishment than death, that it is not a deterrent, and I can't reconcile the position of 'you killed someone(s) - that is BAD. As punishment, we will kill you - this is GOOD'. Does that contradict my pro-choice position? I don't really think so *shrugs*

Cerek, as I understand pro-choice it is just that - pro-choice, not pro-abortion. Wouldn't your views then fall under pro-choice rather than pro-life - you believe people should be able to choose what's best for them even if you don't necessarily agree with their choice? (Not arguing at all with your own personal stance on abortion )

[andrewas]

1. How you voted (of course)

In general, against.

2. Why

A life is a life, regardless of whether or not its dependent upon another at the time.

3. Whether that conflicts with your religion's stance on the issue

Religion? Sorry, stopped listening to that a long time ago.

4. Whether your views change with extenuating circumstances (e.g. you do not support abortion but would support it for rape and incest victims, especially when they are young, or in the cases where the mother's life is in danger).

Certainly. If the mothers life is in danger, then its a choice between a chance for the fetus or for the mother. One life for another. Up to the people concerned.

Incest, possibly best to terminate. Incest has a high chance of various ill-effects on the child. Which is not to say I think its right, just that its maybe the best you can do. Although see arvons thread on this subject.

Rape, its greyer. There are not neccaserily health issues, but the child is the result of a crime against the mother.

5. (just for s*ts and giggles) Whether or not you support the death penalty and how, if at all, you see that relative to your abortion stance.

I dont see a connection between a convicted murderer/rapist whatever, and an innocent unborn child. For the death penalty, and always will be.

[Aragorn The Wise]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Touchy subject. So much has been discussed on religion lately, I thought I'd bring abortion into the debate. This is tricky, because so many people find that their religion dictates one thing while other beliefs they hold dictate another. The Abortion topic sits at the very heart of the "God" question and also tries the very definition of human. After you've answered this very simple poll, please feel free to let us know the following: 1. How you voted (of course) 2. Why 3. Whether that conflicts with your religion's stance on the issue 4. Whether your views change with extenuating circumstances (e.g. you do not support abortion but would support it for rape and incest victims, especially when they are young, or in the cases where the mother's life is in danger). and 5. (just for s*ts and giggles) Whether or not you support the death penalty and how, if at all, you see that relative to your abortion stance. Hope this generates worthwhile debate. I will note I have not posted on this before because it is one of the touchiest subjects out there. But, the level of maturity on this community leaves me hopeful. Pax

1) Pro-choice
2) Because it's the mother choice weather or not that she could support and raise a child in a stable and safe environment
3) Nope - I am agnostic
4) Yes it all depends on the circumstances surrounding the abortion
5) I 100% support the death penatly. If you take a life you shouldn't be allowed to live yours.

1. For allowing Abortion.

2.Because BackStreet Abortions are bad(TM) you cannot stop people from getting something if they want it bad enough. However I think the main thrust should be on prevention if you do not want pregnancy through contraception usage and awareness and Responsibility(TM) But abortions should still of course be allowed.

3.I do not currently follow any relgion.

4.Yes.

5.I do not support the death penalty because:

1. It has been decried in reports as being applied in a racist manner; we humans cannot be trusted to implement it fairly. (For example people executed for crimes as children)
2. If the person is innocent, They cannot be restored to freedom, Then the blood of an innocent is on the hands of the state, It is state sponsored murder.
3. It conflicts with my ideology as an absolute.

[ 01-27-2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Eisenschwarz ]

[Larry_OHF]

Conditional choice.

The only way I know how to describe it.
There are conditions that should be considered. In my church, I have served in areas that deal in rules and regulations, such as Financial Clerk, Membership Clerk, and Executive Secretary to the Bishop. In these callings, I have access to the Blue Handbook...the book that has all the general rules that Bishops and other leaders of the church all use to ensure unity throughout the world. In this book, it is stated that the church does not stand for either side as a church...but that consideration should always be given to the individual circumstance...
If the pregnancy came about by rape, incest, or if the baby or the mother are in danger of dying from the birthing experience...the mother can make the choice to do what she feels right without fear of excommunication. I am para-phrasing...not reading out of the manual. It also says that this decision should be made together with prayer and counseling from leaders of the Church, like the Bishop.
Notice that there was no part in that saying that it is given by default that any of the above conditions equal an immediate decision without thought given to the matter. So...it appears that Conditional Choice should be available for vote.

Now...outside of church thinking...my personal feelings:

I leave the choice to the mother...for it is her body.