The "War" model

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Lemernis: I think a military response is entirely appropriate with this kind of enemy, especially when they are attacking military targets for crying out loud! As I said, they have attacked our government itself. Bin Laden is probably richer than some small nations. He has the full support of certain nations, Afghanistan for one, and perhaps Iraq as well. Nations such as this have been using the PLOY of supporting various terrorist organizations in order to distance themselves from responsibility and insulate themselves from military retalliation. They would appear to be complicit in these atrocities which include attacks on the U.S. government and now its people. If so, now they will have to pay the price. I seriously doubt that Bin Laden or the Taliban has any genuine interest in negotiating in good faith. Is the U.S. supposed to respond by launching terrosist attacks of our own? Come on. Hell yes, this requires a military response!

Dadgomit Lemernis, Another Yankee I agree with ya'll shur'nough making life hard for this southern red-neck



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Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Yes, shortsighted, stupid, inhumane, and yet another reason for people in the world to view the US as a selfish bully who cares nothing for the safety and well being of the other countries of the world.

Really? I am not from the US yet I don't see the USA as a selfish bully. Pretty much every nation agrees that some sort of action is warranted. Even the Pope, who never condones violence has supported action.

Shortsighted, stupid and inhumane would have been an immediate nuclear bombing of Afgahnistan. As it is, it has been two weeks and no action has been taken, and the talk is of longer term more subtle approaches. More akin to longsightedness and the humane response. The USA is gathering intelligence and gathering world support - hardly hallmarks of stupidity. This is the logical choice of action.

Regarding conditions in Afgahnistan, Fjlotsdale and Diogenes, you are both naive if you presume the conditions to be as they are because of the US strikes, and it highlights how blind you are about both Afgahnistan prior to these events and what action is being taken. I suggest both of you do a little research into the recent history of the place before spouting inane comments such as this. Misinformation does nothing for your argument or for educated debate.

The Taliban has ignored creating any social infrastructure for the years they have ruled. Reaction against the USAs movements hardly did that. Members of Aid organisations were arrested long before today. I wouldn't blame them for leaving. War has torn the country apart for twenty odd years, yet you two are insisting that the conditions are resultant from actions over TWO WEEKS?! Were the boatload of Afgahni refugees turned away by Norway, Indonesia and Australia weeks ago, fleeing the USA BEFORE THE WTC ATTACK?

Diogenes, your reaction is little worse than fearmongering my friend. You seriously need to gain some perspective on the situation. There will be no third world war as a result of this, unless your countrymen possess degrees of stupidity and inhumanity never before seen.

And you Fjlotsdale, however you twist your reply stated:
"Diogenes is the most sensible man I have ever not met! And I agree with you! But no-one would listen to him. When people are angry or wounded they rarely listen to the voice of reason."

In this context, you equated "not listening" with disagreeing. Certainly you're not speaking about anyone who hasn't replied (because they weren't listening).

Who else in here was disgareeing with Diogenes? Moridin, Tancred, myself and perhaps 250. Of course I'm going to take it personally. Never have I accused you of being unable to comprehend my words when offering a reply, yet you have on more than one occasion refused to acknowledge the possibility of comprehending, yet disagreeing.

Of course I'm "scratchy". This is not a one off, but a repeated insistance during debates. Look at your language regarding this thread!
"So far, though, I have not seen what I consider to be a single good argument for military action in Afghanistan, even though I understand and have some sympathy for those arguments. My basic instinct is 'bomb the bastard terrorists out of existence!

Define "good" Fjlotsdale. By good do you mean one you agree with? Certainly in this context you're not meaning coherant, expressed, logical, informed, balanced, or any other impartial judgement about the character of an argument. You are applied a subjective assessment, and this is precisely what I am talking about.

Besides, by virtue of the above quote, it would seem you are missing my points.
I took up with Diogenes the issue of not calling this a "war". Never did I suggest "bombing the bastard terrorists out of existence" was a good option, and I repeatedly have stated I am a pacifist.

The current action being persued by the US government is NOT the action they took in WWII against Hiroshima and Japan. Nor is it Operation Desert Storm. The actions are as mentioned above in Bush's speech and in any newspaper covering the situation, and do not have me cowering with fear and dread that millions of innocents are going to die. Don't you get it! I HAVE SEEN THOUSANDS DIE ALREADY!! Don't you think that a foremost care of mine is to NOT have more die?!

Look at the scenario from a small scale. Large tends to confuse the issue.
If in a small town an individual goes around killing someone do we let them keep doing it? No. We have laws that involve confining the individual so they cannot keep doing the action. We arrest him.

Say he is being harboured in a house and the owners refuse to either hand him over, and continue to feed him and house him despite demands to the contrary.
Who's side are the homeowners on? Certainly they do not have the villagers wellbeing at heart.

What would the town do? Say the homeowners get hostile and refuse the police entry? Repeatedly. The police then get a warrant and forcibly enter to obtain the individual do they not? If any in the house do not resist there is no problem, but if the homeowners struggle, conflict ensues.

The USA have their warrant. The global community endorses the action. The have set up around the house and are calling on the megaphone for the individual to be handed over.

Diplomacy has in the past repeatedly failed. Had the Taliban denied him shelter in 1993 after the first WTC bombing this would not have happened.

That is what makes me hurt and angry Fjlotsdale. The thought that through inaction and a lack of resolve this situation could happen again - and occur on a larger scale.




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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!


[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-24-2001).]

[Liliara]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Originally posted by Lemernis: I think a military response is entirely appropriate with this kind of enemy, especially when they are attacking military targets for crying out loud! As I said, they have attacked our government itself. Bin Laden is probably richer than some small nations. He has the full support of certain nations, Afghanistan for one, and perhaps Iraq as well. Nations such as this have been using the PLOY of supporting various terrorist organizations in order to distance themselves from responsibility and insulate themselves from military retalliation. They would appear to be complicit in these atrocities which include attacks on the U.S. government and now its people. If so, now they will have to pay the price. I seriously doubt that Bin Laden or the Taliban has any genuine interest in negotiating in good faith. Is the U.S. supposed to respond by launching terrosist attacks of our own? Come on. Hell yes, this requires a military response! Dadgomit Lemernis, Another Yankee I agree with ya'll shur'nough making life hard for this southern red-neck

If it makes you feel better, John, I too am another redneck who agrees!

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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

[John D Harris]

Yorick, Please check that raiper I gave you, I think I may have given you the Raiper of "Churchill's Biting tongue"

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Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Yorick: Regarding conditions in Afgahnistan, Fjlotsdale and Diogenes, you are both naive if you presume the conditions to be as they are because of the US strikes, and it highlights how blind you are about both Afgahnistan prior to these events and what action is being taken. I suggest both of you do a little research into the recent history of the place before spouting inane comments such as this. Misinformation does nothing for your argument or for educated debate. The Taliban has ignored creating any social infrastructure for the years they have ruled. Reaction against the USAs movements hardly did that. Members of Aid organisations were arrested long before today. I wouldn't blame them for leaving. War has torn the country apart for twenty odd years, yet you two are insisting that the conditions are resultant from actions over TWO WEEKS?! Were the boatload of Afgahni refugees turned away by Norway, Indonesia and Australia weeks ago, fleeing the USA BEFORE THE WTC ATTACK? Don't you get it! I HAVE SEEN THOUSANDS DIE ALREADY!! Don't you think that a foremost care of mine is to NOT have more die?!

Yorick, as both Fjlotsdale and I acknowledged above, we both know conditions in Afghanistan were poor before our military started on its way. Perhaps you should read our posts again, particulary Fjlotsdale's point regarding how much worse those already poor conditions make our military intervention.

Yorick, don't you dare pretend to be hurt by Fjlotsdale's words when you are advocating the killing of more innocent life! Has the death of 6,000 people so suddenly hardened you that the deaths of more don't matter much?

Don't you dare to pretend to take the moral high ground over Fjlotsdale here! She doesn't want more innocent death any more than you do, and yet is wise enough to know that should start right this friggin moment, not wait until after we have had our vengeance!!!!!

Are the innocent Afghani's the same as the houseowners in your example!! Noooo!!!!!! So stop pretending that what you are advocating will cause anything other than the loss of INNOCENT life. You claim to be wanting to save innocent life in the future. As a technique, you are willing to look the other way while our military prepares to take innocent life. What is the principle we are trying to establish here, Yorick?

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Yorick: [B Diogenes, your reaction is little worse than fearmongering my friend. You seriously need to gain some perspective on the situation. There will be no third world war as a result of this, unless your countrymen possess degrees of stupidity and inhumanity never before seen. [/B]

I am not claiming that WWIII is about to start. I am concerned, however, that the US military is about to start operations which will result in the loss of hundreds, or thousands, of innocent lives.

What perspective do I need to adjust?

[Liliara]

Um, here's an idea:

WATCH AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS BEFORE YOU PRESUME WE ARE GOING TO GO IN AND BOMB THE ENTIRE NATION INCLUDING INNOCENTS.


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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

[This message has been edited by Liliara (edited 09-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Liliara (edited 09-24-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Yorick, as both Fjlotsdale and I acknowledged above, we both know conditions in Afghanistan were poor before our military started on its way. Perhaps you should read our posts again, particulary Fjlotsdale's point regarding how much worse those already poor conditions make our military intervention. Yorick, don't you dare pretend to be hurt by Fjlotsdale's words when you are advocating the killing of more innocent life! Has the death of 6,000 people so suddenly hardened you that the deaths of more don't matter much? Don't you dare to pretend to take the moral high ground over Fjlotsdale here! She doesn't want more innocent death any more than you do, and yet is wise enough to know that should start right this friggin moment, not wait until after we have had our vengeance!!!!! Are the innocent Afghani's the same as the houseowners in your example!! Noooo!!!!!! So stop pretending that what you are advocating will cause anything other than the loss of INNOCENT life. You claim to be wanting to save innocent life in the future. As a technique, you are willing to look the other way while our military prepares to take innocent life. What is the principle we are trying to establish here, Yorick?

Innocents don't stand by and let people kill others Diogenes. It is quite likely that the strongest allies of the Coalition will be Afgahnis. Certainly they have made gains already in a couple of northern provinces. As I said. The "innocents" will let the police do their job. Those that hinder are no different from those that destroyed 7,000 (not 6,000 as you mentioned) lives. Current from this mornings statistics.

Also I do not believe either of you are up to speed on the situation in Afgahnistan. I gained that perspective from reading your post Dio.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Liliara: Um, here's an idea: WATCH AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS BEFORE YOU PRESUME WE ARE GOING TO GO IN AND BOMB THE ENTIRE NATION INCLUDING INNOCENTS.

Here's an idea: Read my posts.

As I have said repeatedly in this thread and others, I HOPE Bush has the wisdom to avoid what seems to be building. What I am expressing concern about is the possibility of what we might do. Advising caution after the fact isn't going to do much good, now will it?

And my fears of what we might do aren't being pulled out of thin air. They are based on knowledge of what we have done in the past, at times when we weren't bent on seeking vengeance for 6000 deaths.

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Oh, for crying out loud Moridin! Isn't it possible for more than one party to contribute to misery and suffering!!!!???? Why does it have to be either all Bin Laden, or all the US, always friggin Black and White!!!???!! Yes, the people were already suffering there!!! And yes, we are making them suffer even more with our stupid John Wayne emotional reaction!@!!!!!!!!! Our real enemy here is the willingness to slaughter innocents in the name of a righteous cause!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn Bin Laden for doing so and damn the United States for being willing to do so too!!!!!!!!!

No Damn you Dio, for taking what bin Laden has done and only guessing at what the US might do...you do not understand that my point is the US has not bombed anyone, the US has not hurt a single innocent, maybe they will, maybe they won't, only time will reveal that...yet you sit here and talk like it has already happened...you, like I, cannot predict the future. bin Laden HAS killed thousands of innocents...and for that he must pay, whether it be with controlled military strikes or through an international court of law...you probably think that I don't care if innocent civilians, or our military men and women die...if you do then I am sorry you think that way, b/c I too will be hurt if it happens, just as deeply hurt as I was on Sept 11, but I am not going to jump to conclusions that the military is just going to bomb the hell out of innocents just to get their man...I am waiting to see and hoping that they don't...I am not hell bent on war, I am not all for capturing/killing bin Laden at all costs.

This argument is futile...you obviously believe that I am some blood-thirsty, out for revenge, gung-ho GI Joe...and in that you are wrong



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