Yorrick (Or anyone) a Religous question...

Grand-Ranger · 09-09-2001, 10:27 PM

Ok, this is confuesing me:

Satan (Lusifer ,or how ever you spell it) got baned from heaven for trying to take gods place, that would be a sin right?

But it says that there is no sin in heaven, so if there was no sin in heaven they how did Luseifer sin??

Any awnsers will be aperciated.

------------------

So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be

The ranger looked at the place out side of the elven town near the river, he looked near the rocks, then they showed the way ....

Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas
Currently in service for the Red Wizards

Moridin · 09-09-2001, 10:32 PM

Very interesting question!

I do not have an answer, but am interested in what others will have to say

------------------

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

Larry_OHF · 09-09-2001, 10:36 PM

That is why he was cast out.

He was in Heaven to begin with, and rebelled against God, and God kicked him out.

Now, we cannot get to heaven in our impure state. We have to be purified, first.

------------------

Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
---------------------
Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

Moridin · 09-09-2001, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
That is why he was cast out.

He was in Heaven to begin with, and rebelled against God, and God kicked him out.

Now, we cannot get to heaven in our impure state. We have to be purified, first.

So at the time that Satan (Lucifer) was in heaven, it was possible to sin, but with his (satan's) being outcast the sin went with it?!? In otherwords, throwing Satan out of heaven is an analogy for throwing sin out of our lives?

------------------

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

Larry_OHF · 09-09-2001, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moridin:
So at the time that Satan (Lucifer) was in heaven, it was possible to sin, but with his (satan's) being outcast the sin went with it?!? In otherwords, throwing Satan out of heaven is an analogy for throwing sin out of our lives?

That is a very interesting comment! Thanks for sharing!

------------------

Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
---------------------
Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

Larry_OHF · 09-09-2001, 10:47 PM

Sin was never tolerated in Heaven to begin with.
Satan decided one day that he would like to be the big guy.
He wanted to have glory over our Father in Heaven.
As soon as God knew Satan's heart, he was cast out.
I cannot give good scriptural reference other than the ones taht I have previously stated on the other thread about him falling from grace.

------------------

Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
---------------------
Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

Larry_OHF · 09-09-2001, 10:52 PM

My dictionary quotes;;;
Lucifer = the shining one.
Also lightbringer or Son of the Morning star.

That name only appears once in the bible (Isaiah 14:12)

------------------

Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
---------------------
Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

Fljotsdale · 09-09-2001, 10:58 PM

I'll get back to you on this one Grand Ranger! I have to go to bed now - it is 4am here!
See you tomorrow - YOUR tomorrow! I's already tomorrow here.....

------------------

Lifetime · 09-09-2001, 11:47 PM

IMHO, I believe that sin was possible, it just didnt exist at the time. The angels had a choice whether to obey God's commandments or not, where not obeying leads to sin, so therefore its always been there. Lucifer was the first to do it in the heavens.

And Larry.. doesnt the bible say that Lucifer can take the form of the angel of light? Just a thought. For those who have read the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan..are'nt lightbringer and Lord of the Morning titles given to Rand the "savior" of the age?

------------------
Resident Lurker Guy

Fljotsdale · 09-10-2001, 08:19 AM

Grand Ranger - as promised!

Some definitions:

Satan = Resister
Devil = Slanderer

‘King of Tyre’ = Representative of the line of Tyrian kings, who were very friendly and helpful to the Israelites, but then turned against them. The description is also, in its secondary sense, a very apt description of Satan, the Devil, indicating his origin, or debasement, from what he was formerly to what he became. Ezekiel 28:2, 12-17

Lucifer = (hehlel :Hebrew; ho heosphoros: Greek; lucifer: Latin) Light bearer, Bringer of Dawn: The name given to the ‘King of Babylon’, who is described in somewhat similar terms to the ‘King of Tyre’. Isaiah 14:12-15

After the Fall, Satan still had access to heaven (though possibly not living there any longer), and the freedom to speak to god face to face:
Job 1:6 ‘Now it came to be the day when the sons of the true god entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them’ (see verses 7-12 as well. Interesting.)

Revelation shows Satan and his angels being hurled out of heaven:
Rev 12:7-12.
But apparently this did NOT occur until AFTER Jesus had returned to heaven:
Rev 1:1 shows that the contents of the book speak of ‘things that must shortly take place’.
And Revelation was written some time AFTER the death and Ascension of Jesus, so Satan’s banishment had not yet ‘taken place’ when Jesus was on earth, nor even when John was writing Revelation. The event was still in the future at that time.

{However, since Revelation is written ‘in signs’, it is not necessary to take this literally – though ‘in signs’ can also mean ‘in pictorial images’ I think (not sure, haven’t checked out this vague memory – but Rev IS very pictorial)}.

So who was this Satan person, anyway? (Shades of Douglas Adams

)And how come he could be in heaven when he was sinful, and 'heaven was sinless'?

Well, if we take the descriptions (cited above) of the King of Tyre and the King of Babylon as also applying to Satan, we see that originally this person was an angel of great power and beauty, trusted as one of the ‘covering angels’ in the Garden of Eden. There was no wrong found in him.
So what went wrong?
Jesus said of Satan, at John 8:44 ‘that one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him..’
Is this saying that ‘that one’ had always been incapable of truth? No. Look at the wording of the verse again – ‘he did not stand fast in the truth’. Which indicates that at one time he WAS ‘standing fast in the truth’.
This HAS to be the case, because he was an angelic creation of the god whose ‘activities are perfect’.
When SATAN ‘began’, then, was the point at which this angel BECAME Satan and Devil by resisting god’s goodness, and slandering him to Eve - not the beginning of his life as a creation of god.

So why did this angel suddenly change his 'alignment'? Why was Satan not thrown out of heaven immediately? Why did he still have access to god? And where did the demons come from?

Another thrilling instalment, answering those questions, coming soon!

------------------

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-10-2001).]

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09-09-2001, 10:27 PM	#1
Grand-Ranger Galvatron Join Date: March 29, 2001 Location: Everywhere I wanna go its already where I am,cause I am already there Posts: 2,130	Ok, this is confuesing me: Satan (Lusifer ,or how ever you spell it) got baned from heaven for trying to take gods place, that would be a sin right? But it says that there is no sin in heaven, so if there was no sin in heaven they how did Luseifer sin?? Any awnsers will be aperciated. ------------------ So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be The ranger looked at the place out side of the elven town near the river, he looked near the rocks, then they showed the way .... Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas Currently in service for the Red Wizards

09-09-2001, 10:32 PM	#2
Moridin Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 1,735	Very interesting question! I do not have an answer, but am interested in what others will have to say ------------------ Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

09-09-2001, 10:36 PM	#3
Larry_OHF Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Midlands, South Carolina Age: 48 Posts: 14,759	That is why he was cast out. He was in Heaven to begin with, and rebelled against God, and God kicked him out. Now, we cannot get to heaven in our impure state. We have to be purified, first. ------------------ Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa --------------------- Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

09-09-2001, 10:47 PM	#6
Larry_OHF Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Midlands, South Carolina Age: 48 Posts: 14,759	Sin was never tolerated in Heaven to begin with. Satan decided one day that he would like to be the big guy. He wanted to have glory over our Father in Heaven. As soon as God knew Satan's heart, he was cast out. I cannot give good scriptural reference other than the ones taht I have previously stated on the other thread about him falling from grace. ------------------ Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa --------------------- Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

09-09-2001, 10:52 PM	#7
Larry_OHF Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Midlands, South Carolina Age: 48 Posts: 14,759	My dictionary quotes;;; Lucifer = the shining one. Also lightbringer or Son of the Morning star. That name only appears once in the bible (Isaiah 14:12) ------------------ Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa --------------------- Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

09-09-2001, 10:58 PM	#8
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	I'll get back to you on this one Grand Ranger! I have to go to bed now - it is 4am here! See you tomorrow - YOUR tomorrow! I's already tomorrow here..... ------------------

09-09-2001, 11:47 PM	#9
Lifetime Red Dragon Join Date: March 3, 2001 Location: Scotch College, Melbourne Posts: 1,503	IMHO, I believe that sin was possible, it just didnt exist at the time. The angels had a choice whether to obey God's commandments or not, where not obeying leads to sin, so therefore its always been there. Lucifer was the first to do it in the heavens. And Larry.. doesnt the bible say that Lucifer can take the form of the angel of light? Just a thought. For those who have read the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan..are'nt lightbringer and Lord of the Morning titles given to Rand the "savior" of the age? ------------------ Resident Lurker Guy

09-10-2001, 08:19 AM	#10
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	Grand Ranger - as promised! Some definitions: Satan = Resister Devil = Slanderer ‘King of Tyre’ = Representative of the line of Tyrian kings, who were very friendly and helpful to the Israelites, but then turned against them. The description is also, in its secondary sense, a very apt description of Satan, the Devil, indicating his origin, or debasement, from what he was formerly to what he became. Ezekiel 28:2, 12-17 Lucifer = (hehlel :Hebrew; ho heosphoros: Greek; lucifer: Latin) Light bearer, Bringer of Dawn: The name given to the ‘King of Babylon’, who is described in somewhat similar terms to the ‘King of Tyre’. Isaiah 14:12-15 After the Fall, Satan still had access to heaven (though possibly not living there any longer), and the freedom to speak to god face to face: Job 1:6 ‘Now it came to be the day when the sons of the true god entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them’ (see verses 7-12 as well. Interesting.) Revelation shows Satan and his angels being hurled out of heaven: Rev 12:7-12. But apparently this did NOT occur until AFTER Jesus had returned to heaven: Rev 1:1 shows that the contents of the book speak of ‘things that must shortly take place’. And Revelation was written some time AFTER the death and Ascension of Jesus, so Satan’s banishment had not yet ‘taken place’ when Jesus was on earth, nor even when John was writing Revelation. The event was still in the future at that time. {However, since Revelation is written ‘in signs’, it is not necessary to take this literally – though ‘in signs’ can also mean ‘in pictorial images’ I think (not sure, haven’t checked out this vague memory – but Rev IS very pictorial)}. So who was this Satan person, anyway? (Shades of Douglas Adams )And how come he could be in heaven when he was sinful, and 'heaven was sinless'? Well, if we take the descriptions (cited above) of the King of Tyre and the King of Babylon as also applying to Satan, we see that originally this person was an angel of great power and beauty, trusted as one of the ‘covering angels’ in the Garden of Eden. There was no wrong found in him. So what went wrong? Jesus said of Satan, at John 8:44 ‘that one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him..’ Is this saying that ‘that one’ had always been incapable of truth? No. Look at the wording of the verse again – ‘he did not stand fast in the truth’. Which indicates that at one time he WAS ‘standing fast in the truth’. This HAS to be the case, because he was an angelic creation of the god whose ‘activities are perfect’. When SATAN ‘began’, then, was the point at which this angel BECAME Satan and Devil by resisting god’s goodness, and slandering him to Eve - not the beginning of his life as a creation of god. So why did this angel suddenly change his 'alignment'? Why was Satan not thrown out of heaven immediately? Why did he still have access to god? And where did the demons come from? Another thrilling instalment, answering those questions, coming soon! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-10-2001).]

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