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Old 09-06-2001, 03:01 PM   #31
MagiK
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I totally agree with you Yorik on the failings of fission.. I really think they need to put more money into the fusion projects. I would also agree that who would be hurt by a truely massive solar collection farm out in a desert except that in the USA there are...ummm "advocates" for every environment and they would never stand for it. I guess that in other countries than the USA there are fewer regulations and political action groups that impede progress. One of our major problems in this country is that the agents of change are nearly perfectly balanced with those who would maintain the status quo...thus nothing ever gets done

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Old 09-06-2001, 03:09 PM   #32
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
I would also agree that who would be hurt by a truely massive solar collection farm out in a desert except that in the USA there are...ummm "advocates" for every environment and they would never stand for it. I guess that in other countries than the USA there are fewer regulations and political action groups that impede progress.
Couldn't resist taking a swipe at those crazy environmentalists who love to hold up human progress, could you?

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Old 09-06-2001, 03:21 PM   #33
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
The mere fact that you have to suggest changes in lifestlye to accomodate the increase in population shows that population growth is playing a major role.
Dio you are wrong. The problems have always been there. The technology has not. Humans in our type of culture have always had problems living with their environment. Rome during the Empire couldn't feed itself, and had to import mountains of grain from north Africa. During the rise and rise of Rome, the soils of Italy became comparitively barren. The English chopped down forest after forest in Ireland for defensive purposes. (Against the Irish) The changes in lifestyle have nothing to do with population size and everything to do with the extremity of the journey. Humans could keep expanding, hacking into the Amazon, the Daintree and huge Aussie forests and keep on with the same processes. Sooner or later the attitude will destroy what's left. There is much unspoiled land throughout the world. Thankfully we are becomeing alert to our excesses.


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Old 09-06-2001, 03:38 PM   #34
MagiK
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No Offense Diogenese I think the environmental wacko's are kooks...But I don't think all people who care about the envrionment are wacko's either. I care for the environment as well. Especially since I spend a goodly portion of my free time in the wilderness. I carry out anything I take in and I try to leave the place the way I found it. Course I also carry a gun and am a wacko myself when it comes to what I consider the ridiculous attempts at curing societies ills by passing laws against things that are already illegal. So I can poke fun at myself as well as at the "wacko's" And I really didn't have anyone in particular in mind when I made that post.


Ahh we are all wacko's you and boo and I....Hampsters and wacko's everywhere Rejoice

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Old 09-06-2001, 03:55 PM   #35
Fljotsdale
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Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
I agree with Ms Fljotsdale entirely. Just wanted to jump in to let you know I am following this discussion, but since Ms. Fljotsdale is doing such a good job of expressing my own thoughts, I can just sit back and watch for now
Thanks, Diogenes! Your support is welcome!

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Old 09-06-2001, 04:17 PM   #36
Fljotsdale
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Join Date: March 12, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Do you think because I disagree with you that I have my eyes shut? Fjlotsdale give me a break.

Let's start at the top. Yes there has always been haves and have nots. That's the point I was making. Secondly the scale of the problem is due to technology and mismanagement not overpopulation. Nuclear bombs and nuclear power is a choice. Coal emmissions are a choice. Fume emmiting cars are a choice. The technology is there for cleaner alternate fuel cars. Governments choose to buid highways that encourage more cars instead of building light rail (trams), rail, ferry ports and bus only routes and subsidising taxis. I never suggested we go back to horses and carriages guys, and I acknowledged the difficulty of living in a car centred culture. What I'm pointing out is that people do manage to live in smaller areas without cars where the infrastructure exists. Why can you not see thisFjlotsdale, why do you shut your eyes and refuse to blame the way you, I and our ancestors have lived for generations now. It is easy to blame numbers, easy because it's an avoidance of responsibility.

To curb population it's not just a matter of stopping at two kids. That maintains population levels while doing nothing to curb vomitous amounts of petrol fumes into the air.

Do you really think that numbers had anything to do with French atomic tests in the pacific? Do you really think that numbers have anything to do with shonky ships dropping gallons of oil in the ocean? Do you really believe that humans have to burn coal for energy and not build huge ecofriendly wind farms and solar generators?

Please, don't tell me I'm shutting my eyes. That is an insult quite out of context to our friendly banter.

Finally you are talking allowing a choice regarding child numbers. Funny that's what I'm talking. No one forces these families to have seven children. They choose. No one forces the west to have none, or smaller numbers. It is a choice. However, do we really believe that India is the worst pollutant of the world? India will soon be the most populous nation on earth. It is also one of the poorest. (So much for Karma...) Which out of the USA and India has produced more damage to the environment?

It wouldn't come down to technology and resultant choices would it?

Not because you disagree with ME, Yorick! Because you don't see the obvious!
I agree with pretty much every point you make in the above post. I AGREE, Yorick!! But please don't rule population OUT of the picture. It is very much IN it!
Yes some parents do CHOOSE to have large families, and other do so because it is traditional, and yet others because infantile mortality is high and the children are an insurance policy.
But all too often they do NOT choose to have large families. They are virtually forced to. Because their religion forbids birth control in any form but abstinence from sex.
How many couples will be able to handle abstinence? And if the wife does because she can't cope with more children, then often and often the husband looks elsewhere and sometimes comes home with something nasty.
These people often live in dire poverty, struggling to feed children they don't want and can't afford. If they could CHOOSE how many children to have, then they would have sufficient to care for them properly, the mother's health woulld be better, and hopefully the father need not look elsewhere for sex. They would all be much happier. But, no. Birth control is forbidden and millions of people continue to live in grinding poverty.

Apologies for any insult, Yorick. Didn't mean any. I like you, remember?

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-06-2001).]
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Old 09-06-2001, 04:19 PM   #37
Fljotsdale
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaz:
Question: Has anybody heard about the idea of making a car that runs on hydrogen and oxygen? Theoretically, the only waste product would be water. I don't know too much about this subject, haven't been able to find much information about it (the little I know comes from the Expo 2000) Anybody enlighten me?

Silver Cheetah might know. She is into environmental issues big-time.


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Old 09-06-2001, 04:20 PM   #38
Fljotsdale
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Join Date: March 12, 2001
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Posts: 2,859
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I disagree. Not all cultures exploited the earth with the disregard ours does today and has done for ages. Sadly all of those perished at the hands of city dwelling cultures. Without the advantage of technology, food levels and environmental factors create checks and balances that curb the explosive growth and sudden increase in demands. A fish only grows to the size it's tank allows.

Humans have survived on much less meat for example than we eat today. More demand for meat means more cows, more methane from cow poo (& bigger ozone hole), less grain for other foods, and more land used for growing cows.

Solution - eat less meat. No need to be a vegitarian or vegan, just eat it much less.

But then that requires individual change doesn't it. We can't have that.

Couldn't agree more about the cows and meat-eating.

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Old 09-06-2001, 04:23 PM   #39
Fljotsdale
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Join Date: March 12, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
The mere fact that you have to suggest changes in lifestlye to accomodate the increase in population shows that population growth is playing a major role.
LOL! Good one, Dio! But I don't think he was actually implying that!

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Old 09-06-2001, 04:31 PM   #40
Moridin
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaz:
Question: Has anybody heard about the idea of making a car that runs on hydrogen and oxygen? Theoretically, the only waste product would be water. I don't know too much about this subject, haven't been able to find much information about it (the little I know comes from the Expo 2000) Anybody enlighten me?

I have heard plenty about them...instead of explaining try this link Hydorcar. It includes plenty of other links that you might find interesting.

This is what bugs me when people say, what do we do get rid of the cars and ride horses? Why can't we change cars to be less pollutant? No need to revert back to horses



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