Party with mostly ranged attacks. What is cheating?

[el_kalkylus]

Hello,

Nice to see people are still active players of BG2. I have started playing again, and maybe I will record my progress.

I was planning on playing with the following party:

* Elf Fighter/Mage/Thief - Protagonist
* Half-elf Cleric/Ranger
* Human Kensai(13)/Mage
* Dwarf Kensai
* Elf Archer
* Human Inquisitor

The protagonist will dualwield short swords and/or hammers. The rest of the team will mostly stay at range and kill fast at range too. I will divert attention by summoning monsters at the right time when it is not enough with my protagonist.

I want to record the game to show exactly how fast you can advance in this game while killing everything on the way. But I am not sure what I should do about gold. There is a glitch in the game where you can get millions of gold by drinking potions and putting a gem over it, but I guess that gives you too much of an advantage early in the game. The game also allows you to steal stuff with basically no risk, which is a bit time-consuming but you get everything that you want early on. You can also sell stolen goods to some merchants and then steal and sell the same goods over and over. Do you consider all of these "tactics" cheating? Really, if I record this game it will take forever to pick up armors and so forth just to sell to merchants to buy the stuff that I want (which cannot be stolen). I tried to go with the route where you steal stuff, and I had about 5 clips (10-11 minutes each) where I just spent time to steal stuff. That's quite boring to watch, and I get the same result by simply selling 23489032849 or so gems. Imagine how much time it would take just to pick up stuff from the ground to sell without stealing.

[ElfBane]

It's your game, do as you will. I don't bother with all that stealing from merchants stuff,,and the gem and potion exploit is gone in a patched game(I think!). I just CLUA in about 240,000 GP at the start of the game. Why? Because that's approximately what you have at the end of BG1. Having 240k gives you enough to outfit your party good enough so you can survive the streets of Athkatla! It's a bit of a bummer to be a newbie party with normal weapons and armor,,,,and you can't even walk around without getting your butt kicked by slavers!! So, yes,,,,, I think having some +1 stuff on you evens the odds.

[el_kalkylus]

I have patch 26498 installed which I think is the latest and I can do the gem and potion exploit.

You're right of course that it's my game and I have to set the limits as to what is acceptable. The problem is what you people think is acceptable limits? Is it making the game too easy by adding 240k gold in the beginning of the game?
I have another limit. I don't like to use the wands of summon or wand of cloudkill before I see the enemies. For example, in the sewers, I want to walk into the group that says I have to pay for passage and not kill them beforehand - stuff like that. What I do instead, is to buff up my characters and then walk into the group which can be considered the same thing really since I have pre-knowledge, but the difference is that now I get a fight and even risk ending up dead.

I don't know... I was just thinking about putting videos on youtube. Maybe the audience would think that it's a big NO-NO to use any cheat whatsoever. The Ctrl-J cheat is one that I use when I play myself for example, because it takes forever sometimes to walk, and you KNOW that no monsters will appear on the way anyway because you've played so many times, you know it in and out.

[SixOfSpades]

If your goal is to post videos that show how rapidly (various sections of) the game can be beaten, and/or how quickly one's party can become epic/unbeatable, what's the point of all the helping hands you're giving yourself? A user-defined party of all custom characters (with powergamed stats, no doubt), infinite gold from the start, are you going to fake-talk the enemies as well? In my opinion, this is not the kind of game that will impress the YouTubers--they will most likely regard it not as an example of game prowess, but an example of how well you can cheat, and they'll jeeringly ask you why you didn't simply hack in a couple of KILLSW01.

My advice (for what it's worth) is to build you main character, who has decently realistic stats (or did, at the start of BG1), and play through the game without any "sploitz," using only the recruitable NPCs in the default game, or from non-overpowered mods (Kelsey--good. Solaufein--bad). Then instead of posting video of the whole game, just post the highlights: Party vs. Guarded Compound, Party vs. Sahuagin City, Party vs. Firkraag, etc.

Yes, stealing/reselling items over & over is cheating, in my book. What idiot is going to stand there and not notice that you're selling him the same gem again and again? Golems and Skeletons are that dumb--Gorch is not.

[el_kalkylus]

What do you mean by fake-talk? I don't talk - I kill. :p


Yes, I have seen speedrun with a solo sorcerer for example. That's really an example of prowess and deserves respect. That's not exactly what I am trying to do.

I have tried many different parties, and I know that while some parties are very powerful, probably much more powerful than the party that I presented, they take alot of time and care to build. For example, if you have serveral mages/ sorceres, then choosing spells for these will take "real life time", much more than if you would simply just have the game on auto and let it run, like I intend to in most cases. It is possible that I cannot impress people with this party. You, SixOfSpades for example have doomed it cheating before you even tried to play a party with overpowered stats at the beginning of the game (18 str, 18-19 dex, 18-19 con).

[ElfBane]

Originally Posted by el_kalkylus You, SixOfSpades for example have doomed it cheating before you even tried to play a party with overpowered stats at the beginning of the game (18 str, 18-19 dex, 18-19 con).

Hold on now,,,,YOU asked US what we thought was cheating. You got a couple of responses, and you now bash us for doing as you wished. There are many definitions of "cheating". If you like to powergame, then go right ahead. Some people consider it cheating,,,,you don't. You pays your money, and takes your pick, OK? While "I" don't like to move about Athkatla early in the game getting my butt kicked by slavers!! So I do something about it,,,,,namely CLUA in the money I had at the end of BG1 so I can make my party "survivable" early in the game. I also like to have enough money to buy the magic license, AND enough money to be able to resurrect fallen party members(I'm SURE they appreciate that, or they better!). The money is mine, I earned it in BG1, and I deposited it in the bank in BG(you missed that bank building in BG, didn't ya?). Now I've made a withdrawal from the Bank of CLUA so I can make my party better, and they appreciate it. Now, some people think that CLUAing in money early in the game is cheating,,,,,,well..SO WHAT? I paid my money, I takes my pick. Seeya!

[el_kalkylus]

Elfbane, I agree with you of course. I bought the game, so I can do whatever I want with it. When I play I try to play "realistic" and without cheating. CLUAing in any way is obviously cheating, but I like your reasoning.

Sorry if you think I'm bashing SixOfSpades. I'm just baffled that he thinks it is cheating to choose stats and maybe even spend a few minutes to get good rolls in the beginning . I assumed that since the option to choose stats is there, most people would try to get good stats. I liked it better in Wizardry 8 or Diablo II where everyone starts with the same stats depending on class/race. Then this wouldn't even be a discussion. Remember also that there are plenty of items which improves your stats in this game.

I expect noone to look at the videos I will add to youtube or be impressed if they do look at them. Personally, I got impressed by how fast I could kill monsters when I played a similar party in all situations, and I've played many parties, (and I know of most tricks). I get some sort of feeling of contentment when I see 5 characters in a line shooting/throwing at enemies, killing very fast, and most of the times noone in the group takes any damage, because only my stoneskin/ironskin chars or summoned creatures are targetet. I had the same feeling when I played with several mages and just threw fireballs or whatever, killing groups of enemies instantly. But the group of mages/sorcerers were not strong enough to handle magic immune monsters as efficiently as the ranged party I described in my first post. Maybe I am not skilled enough to play such a party, but I am pretty confident that I am. The point is that the ranged party is very all-rounded and efficient in ALL situations, and you don't need to use cheap tricks like using a wand of summoning. You don't need to use wand of cloudkill before you even see the monsters either.

[ElfBane]

Hey e_K! It looks like you like to fool around with scripts that can basically make your party be a "fire-and-forget" bunch. I "think" Dundee Slaytern (he's a Mod here) works with scripts that do that. He's got a website here..http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/ds_skane/index.html
This site has great tips on solo sorcerer, party sorcerer, beating dragons and beating Kangaxx. Anyway, back to scripts,,,,do a search for "scripts" and posts by "Dundee Slaytern", it might prove of value to you.

[el_kalkylus]

Originally Posted by ElfBane Hey e_K! It looks like you like to fool around with scripts that can basically make your party be a "fire-and-forget" bunch. I "think" Dundee Slaytern (he's a Mod here) works with scripts that do that. He's got a website here..http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/ds_skane/index.html This site has great tips on solo sorcerer, party sorcerer, beating dragons and beating Kangaxx. Anyway, back to scripts,,,,do a search for "scripts" and posts by "Dundee Slaytern", it might prove of value to you.

Yeah, I'm looking for a "fire-and-forget" team, if there are good scripts for sorcerers, I'm interested to try them, definately. Thanks for the tip!

I like using scripts, and I've made some scripts myself too. You can cheat by using scripts, but I try to avoid that as best as I can. I haven't found out a way to hide in shadow only when the "hide-button" is available though. As it is now, you hide in shadow without delays until you're hidden. I don't want to use the function delay, because I may want to do other stuff if I fail to hide in shadow.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

I think one needs to draw a distinction between using the CLUA console and such to make the game less tedious at times, and using "legal" exploits that I would consider cheating.

For example, I tend to be a sticker about stats. Putting more points into critical stats is one thing- after all, one wouldn't expect someone with a Strength of 9 and a Constitution of 11 to be the warrior type. And nobody's going to study magery with an Intelligence of 12.

However, I for one consider a Charisma of less than 8 to be cheating. How on Chauntea's green planet are you going to convince a group of up to 5 other to follow you around and obey your commands if you have the appearance and personal magentism of a mustard jelly? Similarly, a Wisdom or Intelligence score of under 7 (preferably a minimum of 8 or 9) is blatantly unrealistic. If you can't bark out coherent commands, all hope is lost.

Every party is different, of course, and a character like Minsc illustrates the personality that comes with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma of 8, 6, and 9, respectively. It's ridiculous to give yourself a Charisma of 3 knowing that you'll get the Ring of Human Influence to make up for it. You simply wouldn't make it past the Friendly Arm Inn with a stat that low. "We don't serve your kind of rifraff here."

So that would be cheating, even though it's legal.

Control-J and Dungeon-Be-Gone, however, are examples of things that I would consider fine. Nobody wants to tromp all the way through the Umar Hills every time they want to complete a subquest. However, if you're using Control-J to avoid battles, that would then be wrong.

It's been brought up before, but I want to state it for the record- Cloudkilling a group of zombies in the fog of war is fine. They're zombies! Mind flayers, on the other hand, would never stand in a cloud of toxic vapors. And trust me, they know how to open doors.

Fireballing groups of enemies in a similar manner is debatable. If you're walking through a populated area or some other place where you wouldn't normally expect a battle reeks of cheese and foul play. However, if you're in a dungeon, you COULD make the argument that you had a thief scouting ahead... if you've played the game before. MAYBE. But I know that when I replayed BG for the first time in ages, you better believe that I had Coran and Imoen in their Boots of Stealth and Shadow Armor (for the latter) checking out the Firewine Ruins for traps and foes.

ElfBane- The bank is next door to the Merchant League, right? I never use it myself, but I do question why "I" threw out some of the more interesting trinkets the party was carrying. If he's hanging on to the Helm of Infravision and a Ring of Protection +1, why would he toss the Ring of Protection +2, the Robe of Good Archmagi, and a fascinating item like the Claw of Kazgaroth into the garbage heap?

And that's all I have to say. For now.