Dutch goverment resigns

[Alexander]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Rikard_OHF: About the US being the greater good NO western country has as much people who are really poor as the US Most European countries don;t let people down who can;t find a job or who are injured But i guess that's hard to understand for a rightwinger According to one turkish immigrant who cuts my hair, your either wrong, or uninformed. He failed to find this to be the case in the european nations he visited. According to him Greece, Italy, France, Belgium, and England were all hostile impossible places for a low born poor person from other nations to succeed in, he told me that only here in America could he find success, that those other countries were cold, callous and unforgiving to immigrants.....I think Ill take his word for it. I should like ot mention at this point, that I am also dating a Portugese lady who came to this country with her husbad 20 years ago with only enough money to eat and the clothes on her back. Now she and her family own two construction companies and are well into the high 6 figure incomes. They were nto given anything other than what is available to every american. Just because not all people can succeed does not mean it is not the best system... There should be no rewards for failure, and no excuse for not working for what government conrtibutions you receive. I have said before, if you cannot survive in the USA you can't survive anywhere, sad to say, the "All men are created equal" is not a litteral statement, it just means everyone should have the same chance and in this country you do, if you aren't smart or strong enough or earnest enough to succeed, well at least you had your chance. One last little bit, I have visited several european countries granted only for very short terms (only hours) and in limited locations, but I have seen worse filth and poverty there than in the worst slums in harlem or South East DC. Europe is no shining beacon of love and acceptance or humanitarianism towards the idigent and less fortunate.

It is this kind of supreme ignorance that at times makes me feel ashamed to be an American.

Based on a few hours' experience and a barber, you feel that you are qualified to say that America is the best country in the world, and without flaws? Give me a break.

America still has a long way to go - and because of cowboy right-wingers like our president, it's going to take a long time before we straighten ourselves out.

It would take me ages to list everything that is wrong with the USA (arrogance being on the list, mind you), but let me start off.

-Extremely lax firearm laws which no doubt contribute tremendously to the number of firearm deaths each year. We have this garbage so that right-wing nutcases like Charlton Heston can go hunt with an M-16.

-We've still got the death penalty, which is forbidden in most countries, except for places like, oh, China or Iraq....

-We've got an incredibly uninformed gaggle of voters - most of them don't know and don't care about what happens outside of our borders - which, in turn, leaves people confused as to why things like Sept. 11th happen...

Furthermore, it is these ignorant voters which are allowing President Bush to give himself more power than any other president in recent history - all under the false pretense of "fighting terrorism", which we're not really doing by bombing some villages in Afghanistan. Tell me, have we captured or killed Osama bin Laden? Nope. Just after Sept. 11th, Dubya made quite clear that we needed to capture or kill him, or we will fail in our objective of combatting terrorism. Now he's changing his mind...wonderful...

-Finally, you've got a country which continually tells the UN to bugger off - especially when Bush decided to bomb Afghanistan without even asking for approval - and then its citizens are shocked and amazed when the UN doesn't take kindly to this and votes us off the human rights board.

America is far from perfect, and is probably not the greatest country in the world to live in - unless you've lived in Europe, I doubt you can seriously tell other people (particularly Europeans) what their continent is like.

I hope that someday America will fall from grace, even temporarily, so that Americans will realize that we are not the rulers of the world, nor should we be.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Rikard_OHF: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: And I forget but wasnt it you lot over there on that side of the globe who have the man who is responsible in a cushy lil prison cell with cable tv and a nice weight room?...cable?? wait I read they were installing satellite tv for him ...my bad.

Don;t you think we should trial this guy?
Or is shooting everybody dead your answer to everything?[/QUOTE]Yeah actually I DO believe mass murderers should be executed immediatley upon arres. However in this case he has had his trial, and now he lives a far more comfy life than many of those who suffered his atrocities.[/QUOTE]How backwards and ignorant!

What if you were falsely arrested of mass murder? Or a loved one? Law enforcement isn't perfect - they're all human. Trials are here for a reason - to ensure that the guilty party is truly guilty. If we did away with that, no doubt some unscrupulous people would take advantage of the system and rub out innocent people without trial.

I'm sure it's easy for you to sit there and tell people how the world should be when you have seen so little of it yourself.

Originally posted by Alexander: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Rikard_OHF: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: And I forget but wasnt it you lot over there on that side of the globe who have the man who is responsible in a cushy lil prison cell with cable tv and a nice weight room?...cable?? wait I read they were installing satellite tv for him ...my bad.

Don;t you think we should trial this guy?
Or is shooting everybody dead your answer to everything?[/QUOTE]Yeah actually I DO believe mass murderers should be executed immediatley upon arres. However in this case he has had his trial, and now he lives a far more comfy life than many of those who suffered his atrocities.[/QUOTE]How backwards and ignorant!

What if you were falsely arrested of mass murder? Or a loved one? Law enforcement isn't perfect - they're all human. Trials are here for a reason - to ensure that the guilty party is truly guilty. If we did away with that, no doubt some unscrupulous people would take advantage of the system and rub out innocent people without trial.

I'm sure it's easy for you to sit there and tell people how the world should be when you have seen so little of it yourself.[/QUOTE]Wow! You are a liberals liberal [img]smile.gif[/img] dnot even his own lawyer tried to claim he was innocent [img]smile.gif[/img] I think we should set him free and have him live next door to you [img]smile.gif[/img]

[quote]Originally posted by Alexander:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MagiK:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Rikard_OHF:
[qb]

.

Alexander two things...one ....watch the personal attacks, its not tolerated well on this board, this is a discussion forum and I have the right to my opinion just as Rikard has to his, we are attacking ideas and policy not each other.

Second, obviously you are just chipping in here without having any background on me...at least Rikard has some Idea where Im coming from, I am obviously not basing my whole ideology on one or two conversations, I've lived and learned, I have traveled and experienced to act like I've been living in some back water rural town is falacy. I have been over seas, I have been in combat, I have been on humanitarian missions and I have watched and learned, I read, I educate myself and Ilearn....we use examples because we can't put our whole life time of experience down into one post. So skip the superior BS Ive got more international experience than MOST people. This board only has a handfull of people who have been to as many places and seen as many things as I have...so again, My point of view is as "valid" as any and has a bit more behind it than the average person.

[Sir ReGiN]

Originally posted by Alexander: It is this kind of supreme ignorance that at times makes me feel ashamed to be an American. Based on a few hours' experience and a barber, you feel that you are qualified to say that America is the best country in the world, and without flaws? Give me a break. America still has a long way to go - and because of cowboy right-wingers like our president, it's going to take a long time before we straighten ourselves out. It would take me ages to list everything that is wrong with the USA (arrogance being on the list, mind you), but let me start off. -Extremely lax firearm laws which no doubt contribute tremendously to the number of firearm deaths each year. We have this garbage so that right-wing nutcases like Charlton Heston can go hunt with an M-16. -We've still got the death penalty, which is forbidden in most countries, except for places like, oh, China or Iraq.... -We've got an incredibly uninformed gaggle of voters - most of them don't know and don't care about what happens outside of our borders - which, in turn, leaves people confused as to why things like Sept. 11th happen... Furthermore, it is these ignorant voters which are allowing President Bush to give himself more power than any other president in recent history - all under the false pretense of "fighting terrorism", which we're not really doing by bombing some villages in Afghanistan. Tell me, have we captured or killed Osama bin Laden? Nope. Just after Sept. 11th, Dubya made quite clear that we needed to capture or kill him, or we will fail in our objective of combatting terrorism. Now he's changing his mind...wonderful... -Finally, you've got a country which continually tells the UN to bugger off - especially when Bush decided to bomb Afghanistan without even asking for approval - and then its citizens are shocked and amazed when the UN doesn't take kindly to this and votes us off the human rights board. America is far from perfect, and is probably not the greatest country in the world to live in - unless you've lived in Europe, I doubt you can seriously tell other people (particularly Europeans) what their continent is like. I hope that someday America will fall from grace, even temporarily, so that Americans will realize that we are not the rulers of the world, nor should we be.

Well said!
[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Rikard_OHF]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Rikard_OHF: About the US being the greater good NO western country has as much people who are really poor as the US Most European countries don;t let people down who can;t find a job or who are injured But i guess that's hard to understand for a rightwinger According to one turkish immigrant who cuts my hair, your either wrong, or uninformed. He failed to find this to be the case in the european nations he visited. According to him Greece, Italy, France, Belgium, and England were all hostile impossible places for a low born poor person from other nations to succeed in, he told me that only here in America could he find success, that those other countries were cold, callous and unforgiving to immigrants.....I think Ill take his word for it. I should like ot mention at this point, that I am also dating a Portugese lady who came to this country with her husbad 20 years ago with only enough money to eat and the clothes on her back. Now she and her family own two construction companies and are well into the high 6 figure incomes. They were nto given anything other than what is available to every american. Just because not all people can succeed does not mean it is not the best system... There should be no rewards for failure, and no excuse for not working for what government conrtibutions you receive. I have said before, if you cannot survive in the USA you can't survive anywhere, sad to say, the "All men are created equal" is not a litteral statement, it just means everyone should have the same chance and in this country you do, if you aren't smart or strong enough or earnest enough to succeed, well at least you had your chance. One last little bit, I have visited several european countries granted only for very short terms (only hours) and in limited locations, but I have seen worse filth and poverty there than in the worst slums in harlem or South East DC. Europe is no shining beacon of love and acceptance or humanitarianism towards the idigent and less fortunate.

If you talk about One persons
We have an American Fugitive in the netherlands his asylum application got accepoted bcause in the US he's not sure of his life
And the reason?
He has different political views
Nothing more nothing less he never did anything dangerous and sayd nothing worse then i have

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by MagiK: Alexander two things...one ....watch the personal attacks, its not tolerated well on this board, this is a discussion forum and I have the right to my opinion just as Rikard has to his, we are attacking ideas and policy not each other. Second, obviously you are just chipping in here without having any background on me...at least Rikard has some Idea where Im coming from, I am obviously not basing my whole ideology on one or two conversations, I've lived and learned, I have traveled and experienced to act like I've been living in some back water rural town is falacy. I have been over seas, I have been in combat, I have been on humanitarian missions and I have watched and learned, I read, I educate myself and Ilearn....we use examples because we can't put our whole life time of experience down into one post. So skip the superior BS Ive got more international experience than MOST people. This board only has a handfull of people who have been to as many places and seen as many things as I have...so again, My point of view is as "valid" as any and has a bit more behind it than the average person.

So you think that with all your experience your opinions are actually more justified than those of others? And you just dismiss his criticism because you think it is beneath you to debate them? It doesn't make you more right about things nor does it make someone else's opinion less valid.
People don't win debates by boasting about their self-proclaimed expertism on certain subjects. [img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img]

[ 04-16-2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Originally posted by MagiK: Thank you. I know I do not have all the answers but I know the wrong answers when I see them [img]smile.gif[/img] sort of like art...I can't define it, but I can usually tell when Im looking at it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I see what you mean [img]smile.gif[/img]

Alexander, I get the impression that you're too keen to rub your own country's face in the dirt, but the reasons you give aren't adequate to justify your own harsh criticism. I'll admit the laws are somewhat lax with regards to firearms, but I'm sorry, if you feel that is a good enough reason to condemn your own country then I fail to see where you're coming from. Shootings happen all over the world. Take a large country like China or Russia - these countries breathe corruption and I sincerely doubt the crime rate of these two nations is considerably lower than that of the US.

And you honestly consider the death penalty a reason to think America a lowly country? Many would argue that this acts as a deterrent where crime is concerned, though I am aware it hasn't quite had the desired effect. If some lunatic walked into your house, shot your family and made a quick getaway, would you rather he was killed or merely put into a (luxurious) prison cell, where he lives out the rest of his days in more comfort than he probably enjoyed before he committed the crime?

America happens to be one of the great forces in the modern world, but I think the arrogance that people seem to assume America has is not entirely justified. However much you despise your own country, you cannot deny the power and influence it has. Of course the US itself knows this and in a way it certainly does have the right to exercise its authority in the right circumstances.

You also (rather conveniently) leave out America's plus points. Trust me, on a day-to-day basis, I find life in the States a good deal more enjoyable than I do in my own country. I am not praising America to the skies - it has its faults, as does any country. But as MagiK says, the nation is in a lose/lose situation. If it doesn't step into world affairs, it gets criticized, but if it does step in, as it has been doing lately, it gets people like you on its back.

[ 04-16-2002, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Arledrian ]

[MILAMBER]

Originally posted by Dreamer128: For those of you that don't know, Srebrenica is comparable with 11 september, only alot more people died. But I guess your value as a person 'is' determined by your nationality, since absolutly no one outside Bosnia or the Netherlands has heard from it. Rather 1000 anonymous muslims dead then one citizen from the west. Its a sad world.

There are people who live outside the U.S? How were we supposed to know?

In all seriousness though.

You appear to be insinuating that everyone in the entire world with the exception of those living in the Netherlands and Bosnia aren't as morally correct as you are.

Please don't confuse a lack of information with a lack of humanity.

[Dreamer128]

Originally posted by MILAMBER: Please don't confuse a lack of information with a lack of humanity.

Thats my point. 11 september got worldwide media coverage and international support. Those Muslims got a "Sorry, not our fault, go complain to the Serbs". And apparantly, the western media's hardly found it worth mentioning. And even if everyone had known, would it have changed anything? Far away from our doorstep, not our problems. Perhaps you feel sorry for the thousands of widows when you watch the journal, so you'll get yourself another drink and turn on a happy show. But when the west itselfs comes under attack, suddenly every effort must be made to get to the terrorists.

[ 04-16-2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]