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Old 10-02-2001, 08:17 PM   #41
G'kar
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Life after death- yes.

Suffering in the after-life or hell- No, only if reincarnated back on earth counts.

Self-created After-life- If the after-life is an extension of my own nonlocal existance, and if my expirience of it when I pass from my body is determined by my own beliefs, Then I believe the After-life is like a place where I can concieve and send love to all my loved ones, regardless of time and space. I believe continuing non-physical and phyisical existance as a soul has greatness and purpose, that which an eternel hell would have no place in.


"Hell could never be made for me, so I'll search and search til I'm free"
From "No Sympanthy" by Peter Tosh
 
Old 10-04-2001, 07:01 AM   #42
Zateel
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Join Date: March 11, 2001
Location: Long Beach, MS
Posts: 354
Boowinstheday,

That's some pretty heavy thinking for a nineteen year old. Many people die of old age, having purposely avoided speculation out of fear of disappointment or failure. I'm posting not so much to give you a direct answer( for I'm afraid nobody on this forum can, with any authority, not even mighty Ziroc), but to let you know that there are others of us out here who do believe in a life after death.
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I'm Christian. By that I simply (and only) mean that I believe that Christ is the son of God, lived on Earth as a man, and died in my place. I don't go to church, and I have no demonination with which to affilite my beliefs. I would call myself a church of one, except that is a contradiction by definition. Let me offer you some of my thoughts and speculations, free from the "ARE YOU SAVED, SON?" salvational imperitivism that has soured many of these unbelievers.
For a Christian, the question is not so often IS there an afterlife, but when? Is it immediately after death? Of course from the deceased person's perspective it would be, but in the chronology of time, as we know it, when does our counciousness, reason, ability to understand and make and act on choices return? Do we wait for all who will die to die, and then are they raised? Are we "thinking" before we have raised bodies,or are are we asleep and unaware? What will we be like after we are raised? Will we be flesh and blood, imperishable, or energy "spirit" (etheral) beings? What is a soul, really? If there is no beginning or end to eternity, are we reliving history "recycling" time (from the Big Bang to the eventual reversal of the Doppler effect, where gravity between masses sucks everything in the universe back together, for example, over and over), or does God exist in all moments at once, with an aware conciousness that communicates to itself across time, lending foresight to the past, effectively "sitting still in time, but everywhere(or everywhen)"?
.
All these questions and thousands more you will encounter if you search for truth. Look with an open mind and a sincere heart and you will find what you seek, sooner or later. As a child, I was raised in a church, and I had images and concepts presented to me that were hard to shake when I began to "look" for myself. If you follow the Christian path, I would give you this advice: all men are corruptable(not corrupt) and that Revelatory knowledge is rare. People will ask you to accept things on "faith". Usually this means that they cannot explain something, but nonetheless want you to believe it. Faith is a double edged and dangerous word, since it is a necessity of the believer, and a tool of the charlitan.
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On the Bible: There are many examples that show how the Bible was written by men(who are fallible, and were not divinely "possessed" as if by a demon to transcribe a direct dictation from God), and our most ancient manuscripts differ from each other. If only differing by a letter (not to mention the entire last chapter of Mark, etc.), this proves that man is fallible, if only as a transcriptionist, how much more so as the author. If you want more info or links to textual criticism, I'll try to find them if you Email me. I'm not saying the Bible is wrong about anything. I'm just saying that man can force a belief out of any word. Did you play Baldur's Gate II? Did you do Jahiera's Harper quest where she took the character back to Galvarey for questioning, and your answers were twisted? This is part of what I mean.
.
So, to answer your question a little, no one can tell you there is or is not life after death. Nearly every culture has a belief that there is, if that helps. Certainly no one can tell you there is not, for they haven't died to find out, and if they did die, returning to tell you would nullify their argument. So why not consider believing the best? Most Christians can recall an event in their life when suddenly they DID believe, ever so completely, without thought to reason or logic. Proof simply was found as a gift of knowledge from God, that one without cannot appreciate, regardless of research and one's ability to read ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek manuscripts.
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As an addendum, I would recommend reading Josephus' "Discourse to the Greek's Concerning Hades", which is short. Josephus was a Pharisee, and had also spent time with the Essenes, so this work gives a good idea of what the Jew's just after Christ's time thought about what happens when you die (Christ was also a Jew, don't forget). I would then read the last half of Luke 16, and compare the description, which is often written off as "a parable" or "a metaphor". A more complex work, The Book of Enoch, which only exists in it's entirity in Ethiopic, although portions of the original Aramaic were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran Cave 4, has a similar, although more complete (or at least complex) description. A point of interest is that the Book of Enoch IS included in the the Ethiopic canon (version) of the Bible, and it has been positively dated BEFORE the time of Christ (most guess about 200 B.C.E). Anyway, that's a good place to start from a Christian standpoint to look for your answer. Good luck to you; I can remember when I first questioned...
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Old 10-04-2001, 08:53 AM   #43
boowinstheday
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Join Date: September 10, 2001
Posts: 9
Dear Zateel and all,

Once again, thank you for taking the time to explain to me what you know of this subject.

Just to clarify that I'm 25 years old. I remember the first time I thought of this, I was about 6 years old and woke up crying because I was terrified. Since then, I've had about 3-4 more "intense" periods where the self-doubt got particularly bad.

I've tried reading the Bible, but there are so many names in it that after a while, I was quite lost and bewildered trying to link one person to his ancestor/descendant. I kind of lost the big picture trying to figure out what was going on.

However, I have to admit that tt's a good idea to read up on this. So, I'll give it another try one of these days. Hmm, maybe I should read different books in parallel...

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Old 10-04-2001, 08:58 AM   #44
Bahamut
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Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Manila, Philippines
Age: 39
Posts: 4,864
These is life after death... whoever the deity... that is the point

I just cannot stand and think that after my life is just

blank. nada. zero. nil. non-existent



------------------


Chaotic Cavalier of ALSB, protector of the Innocent, slayer of the mad...
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Old 10-04-2001, 02:38 PM   #45
Zateel
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Join Date: March 11, 2001
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Yeah, the Bible can be a tough read, especially if you start with "In the beginning...". I've heard that many Bible scholars believe that Mark was the first of the four canonized gospels to be written. This is a great place to start reading. The first four books in the New Testament have much similar information (John has the most information of the four NOT in the other three), then the story picks up in Acts. After that, quite a bit of the rest is the teachings of Paul. A lot of emphasis is put upon The Revelation by many organizations. I would save this one for last if I were you, or at least the last to explore in depth. Revelation chapters 20 and 21 might help you with your original question, though.
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You had mentioned reading in parallel- I assume you mean translations of the Bible? There are a lot of great internet sites available to help you with this free of charge. My favorite is the NIV, for ease of reading. I've heard that the NEB(New English Bible) is one of the most accurate translations retaining meaning from the original texts, and it's also an easy read. The Watchtower (Jehova Witness) Bible, "The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" is supposed to be a really good literal translation(I've read). Be careful here though, because modern thought and sentence structure (I mean what you first think when you hear a word/sentence) may be different than what the author intends (but who really knows?) In several places, it also offers an alternative punctuation and phrasing, which are really at the translators discression, which offers a new way to look at the same scripture. I'm no JW, so I hope I haven't misrepresented this translation to much. Whatever you do, don't try to read all of Genesis right at first, or you will quit reading the Bible. This part is among the most ancient (along with Job) and parts of it are full of generational charts and war records(BORING!). That along with Noah getting drunk and naked, and cursing his son for covering him up, and Lot being rewarded by getting drunk and having incestuous relations with his two daughters are a lot to chew on when you're trying to contemplate the nature of Christianity.
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Old 10-04-2001, 03:31 PM   #46
Dramnek_Ulk
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from the Thought shop Website i give you questions to answer if you think the bible really is the sauce of all wisdom:

"6. Explain why I should believe that your god is all-good when the only real information we have about him is the Bible, which clearly describes him as both good and evil. (See Isaiah 30:32, Luke 14:26, Numbers 31:17-18, Matthew 10:34, Amos 3:6, Deuteronomy 18:8, Deuteronomy 20:16, Exodus 20:5, Exodus 32:27, Isaiah 45:7, Psalms 52:5, Luke 22:36, and Jeremiah 18:11 for a small sample of Biblical passages which describe Jehovah as having an evil morality at times).

7. Explain why, when racism is clearly wrong, Jesus was clearly a racist (see Mark 7:25-29).

8. Explain why, when discrimination against women is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports the oppression of women. Refuting that entails refuting 1 Cor 11 and 1 Tim 2:11-15.

9. Explain why, when slavery is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports slavery. Refuting that entails refuting 1 Peter 2:18.

10. Explain why children should submit to their parents' decisions even when those decisions are clearly evil. Answering this question entails refuting Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Proverbs 13:24, and Hebrews 12:7-8.

11. Explain why, if your god loves us all, more than half of us are going to Hell after we die. Specifically, refute or explain the following words of Christ, as presented in the New Testament: "Many are called but few are chosen," and "Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth unto salvation, and few there be that find it." If your god loves all of us, and is omnipotent and omniscient to boot, couldn't he have found a better way?

52. Explain why your "just and merciful" god sent bears to kill forty-two children who called his prophet Elisha "baldhead." (See 2 Kings 2:23-24)."

------------------
Hear no evil, speak no evil
See no evil, feel no evil
Dream no evil, fear no evil
Touch no evil, taste no evil
All I see and hear is evil
All I think and feel is evil
 
Old 10-04-2001, 05:08 PM   #47
tracey
Manshoon
 

Join Date: June 18, 2001
Location: England
Posts: 217
well said jabidas.

couldn't have put better myself.

should read down from yours, it looks quite involved though and i'm off to beddy bye bye's.

night all

------------------
offended mistress of the illuminati
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Old 10-04-2001, 05:27 PM   #48
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,781
Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
from the Thought shop Website i give you questions to answer if you think the bible really is the sauce of all wisdom:

"6. Explain why I should believe that your god is all-good when the only real information we have about him is the Bible, which clearly describes him as both good and evil. (See Isaiah 30:32, Luke 14:26, Numbers 31:17-18, Matthew 10:34, Amos 3:6, Deuteronomy 18:8, Deuteronomy 20:16, Exodus 20:5, Exodus 32:27, Isaiah 45:7, Psalms 52:5, Luke 22:36, and Jeremiah 18:11 for a small sample of Biblical passages which describe Jehovah as having an evil morality at times).

7. Explain why, when racism is clearly wrong, Jesus was clearly a racist (see Mark 7:25-29).

8. Explain why, when discrimination against women is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports the oppression of women. Refuting that entails refuting 1 Cor 11 and 1 Tim 2:11-15.

9. Explain why, when slavery is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports slavery. Refuting that entails refuting 1 Peter 2:18.

10. Explain why children should submit to their parents' decisions even when those decisions are clearly evil. Answering this question entails refuting Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Proverbs 13:24, and Hebrews 12:7-8.

11. Explain why, if your god loves us all, more than half of us are going to Hell after we die. Specifically, refute or explain the following words of Christ, as presented in the New Testament: "Many are called but few are chosen," and "Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth unto salvation, and few there be that find it." If your god loves all of us, and is omnipotent and omniscient to boot, couldn't he have found a better way?

52. Explain why your "just and merciful" god sent bears to kill forty-two children who called his prophet Elisha "baldhead." (See 2 Kings 2:23-24)."

What an absolutely stunning set of questions. Any Christians out there got any answers? (I have no axe to grind on this one, I genuinely would be interested in seeing answers to the above...).

------------------


Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati
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Old 10-04-2001, 06:31 PM   #49
G'kar
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
11. Explain why, if your god loves us all, more than half of us are going to Hell after we die. Specifically, refute or explain the following words of Christ, as presented in the New Testament: "Many are called but few are chosen," and "Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth unto salvation, and few there be that find it." If your god loves all of us, and is omnipotent and omniscient to boot, couldn't he have found a better way?


Serious contemplation of a question like this could lead to a belief change
I know mine sure did.
I still believe that divine infinite mind has eternal love manifest within all of creation, But I now believe that hell is self-created and was perpetuated by certain church leaders out of ignorance, and served as propaganda designed to control population through fear.

 
Old 10-04-2001, 11:57 PM   #50
Bullvye
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Join Date: September 27, 2001
Location: West Palm Beach, Fl
Posts: 66
Dramnek, I will pray for you, friend. From where I don' know, but you have an apparent misunderstanding of holy scripture. I suggest that you pray. Pray for understanding, guidance, and truth. And then, read again the passages that you have quoted, and allow scripture to interpret scripture. Keep your mind and heart open to what you may find therein.

As for me and my family; this is what we believe:
We believe in one God, the Father, the almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We beleive in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us, and for our salvation, he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and became fully human.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
He suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the scriptures.
he ascended into heaven
and is seated on the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge both the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end!
We belive the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who in unity with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come.

My hope is for you, Dramnek, that you may also find this truth in your life. The path may be hard to follow, and the road narrow, but search. Search for the truth in what the Lord has given us, His holy word! The easy way of turning away is for the weak. Be strong! Look for God, and I promise you this....you WILL find Him!
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