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Old 04-24-2002, 03:57 PM   #91
khazadman
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Nationalism always gets President approval ratings sky high, so Bush is actually doing NOt that well
bush was doing well in the polls before the war started.
Quote:
However there is a paranoia in the west at the time of Communist expansion,
Generals wanted to nuke China, Film Star accused of being spies with no evidence.
yes there was a debate about the use of nukes in korea.and film stars and writers were not accused of spying.they were accused of being communists.and so what?
Quote:
I mean surely if you are democratic, communism is a legit opposition and if not ideal opposition government is America?
no,communism is not a legitimate opposition party.they oppose all the freedoms our government stands for.and communists like to ban all political opposition when they gain control.you can trust communists about as much as you can the national socialists(the nazis for all you kids in public school).
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Old 04-24-2002, 04:36 PM   #92
Thoran
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Quote:
Originally posted by fable:
quote:
Originally posted by /)eathKiller:
I think the cold war was great because it seemed to have no begining and no recorded end, it also never got "hot"...
Regrettably, I must disagree with you. The Cold War was very "hot" for those nations that lined up to be client states of both superpowers; and for the people who lived in those client states and put up with vicious dictatorships who received money, weapons and military training from either the Soviet or the US. Many problems in Africa today and many right-wing bloodbath regimes in South America can be credited to the US propping up mini-fascists or tearing down socialist regimes, while the Soviets had puppets in Africa, South America and Eastern Europe (remember Ceausescu, the man who destroyed Romania?). The "People's Republic" of China tended to concentrate their efforts in destroying southeast Asia. (The US is blamed for South Vietnam, but many people forget that China was responsible for Pol Pot, Cambodia's own answer to Adolf Hitler. Then there were all the people whose lives were destroyed trying to escape from Communist Eastern Europe, or who lived in societies under constant police surveillance.

Cumulatively, over time, the Cold War was very costly, and we're still paying its price, today.
[/QUOTE]Good post Fable, you're absolutely right. The cold war contained a whole lot of hot spots where small countries became proxy combatants for the superpowers. Not a good place to be... in addition both superpowers made some horrible decisions out of fear of the other. Those decisions resulted in real death an suffering... just not for us (for the most part).
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Old 04-24-2002, 06:44 PM   #93
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This is a very interesting thread!, but there's a lot of simultaneous stuff getting thrown into the mix.

A bit ago someone was questioning our media, biased reporting... and used our support of Israel as an example (with the assumption that if we had all the info we'd be against it). I have palestinian friends so I find myself to be VERY well informed on the subject (whether I like it or not). Over the years I've waffled on the subject, but in the end (for me) it comes down to the use of terrorism to force political change.

We can't allow such tactics to gain any validity in the world. It's interesting that the Palestinians have been fighting to gain their freedom using violence for over 50 years, with little to show for it. India was able to gain their freedom in what... 30 years? (perhaps someone could add more detail there)... And they did it by using peaceful means. The point is that the international community responds MUCH more strongly to peaceful resistance than to the terrorist tactics being employed by the Palestinians. I am totally unable to support the palestinian cause (which I believe is valid) while they continue to use terrorism.

SO... in conclusion I agree with the US support of Israel, because otherwise the REGIONAL Hegemon (the Arab community) would surely have overrun them by now... and they would certainly NOT have been using economic sanctions to do it. In my opinion the US involvement has only been to level the playing field and give the Israeli's a chance against an antagonistic enemy.

[ 04-24-2002, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]
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Old 04-25-2002, 07:04 PM   #94
Silver Cheetah
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
That actually made me laugh [img]smile.gif[/img] thanks I needed a good chuckle [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am actually quite happy that now that europe has started pulling together into the EU the USA can quit bothering to send all those tens of billions your way in aid for every little disaster that strikes [img]smile.gif[/img] YOu all can pull together and maybe be as successful as the USA. I can see it now..the United States of Europe.... well eventually.
the united states of europe ???? that's just a hot air balloon and
soon there will be no air left in it. there is just too much rivalry
amongst them and no trust either. I just hate the idea that one day
i would walk up to a frenchman and say to him: Hi fellow countryman[/QB][/QUOTE]Ho ho, well that aint never going to happen, is it. The French can't stand the rest of Europe. Most of them wish they'd never got involved in the EU in the first place. Enthusiastic they aint.
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Old 04-25-2002, 07:21 PM   #95
Silver Cheetah
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Quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:

Now as you can see the USA is more efficent in it use of GAS for cars the great myth that we are not clean. The rest of the world clean your act up on auto emmissions, before you even think about pointing a finger at the USA. Europe & Japan are more efficeint in the turning of energy to final products, but then the size of the area and distance the raw matterials must be shipped to manufacturing, the to the consumers must be factored in (if you wish to be intellectually honest). The USA covers a much larger area then Western Europe, or Japan.
As for who, or whom is using energy the least efficient (MOST WASTEFULL) Why look it is Russia, China, and India, the every people Koyto (or What ever) would have let slide. Yeah,let the most wastefull slide and punish the most efficient that sounds like a good plan to me.
First off, it's not down to area covered, but to population. The US is very lightly populated in comparison with Europe. Countries like the Netherlands have very high populations in relativly small land areas. How about a population comparison?

Regarding China and India, sigh, Kyota is not letting them 'slide'. They are to be brought in on the second phase. The reason for that is that they are relatively newly industrialised in comparison with the West, and large segments of both countries are still not industrialised at all. Time is required. The West enjoyed centuries of regulation free emitting, and built up much wealth in the process. China and India are asking for a little time to get their act together. Emissions cutting is costly, and they don't have the same resources as we do.
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Old 04-25-2002, 07:33 PM   #96
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Originally posted by MagiK:
well not that many people are watching cnn over here anymore.but if you think it's unbalanced to report that a head of state who also heads a terrorist organization is responsible for what is happening in the mid-east,then oh well.israel just reacted to arafats attacks.
quote:
BTW, i'm not saying everybody is thinking the same way in the US. In fact, most of the opposition to Dubya's regime come from the inside.
They are many, but they are voiceless. No corporate corporate media will publish them, but they are there.
Try this:
www.zmag.org
www.michaelmoore.com (his last book is great!)
michael moore is one of the most full of shit people i have ever seen on tv(pardon my language).even when i was a leftist i felt he was too far to the left.if this country was run the way he wished it would break up.he is a hack.
Quote:
Khazadman, are you army or ex army, by any chance? Just idle curiousity....
nope.i crushed my ankle when i was 17 and that kept me out.otherwise i would have joined(was talking to the recruiter at the time).i was VERY disapointed.
Quote:
Just to bring you down to earth a tad - what America did to help Europe after the second world war was great. However, don't run away with the idea that it was disinterested altruism. Basically, it was about rebuilding markets. The US economy needs the European market to thrive, always has. Sheer native hardheaded shrewdness prompted that decision. I'm not knocking it, just pointing out the way it is.
but don't forget that much of what was done over there was not governmental.there were alot of people who volunteered to help over there.private citizens and churches donated money and sent people over seas.
Quote:
Hmm. Interesting. 'The world might be a pretty screwed up place if it wasn't for US.' Really? So from where you're sitting, it doesn't look screwed up even with your involvement?
are you saying that it would be a better place if we had allowed the communists free reign.
Quote:
Take the situation in Palestine, for instance. You don't think American backing of Israel for lo, these many many moons might have something to do with the current situation in the middle east? (Although you probably don't know the full sum of it. The American media have reported the confict in a very one sided way so far, with a couple of exceptions.)
there is only one side.israel=good,palestinians=bad.israel is willing to co-exist with the palestinians.but the palestinians leaders only wish for the destruction of israel.and theeir leaders kill any who question their dictator arafat.and don't give me that crap about his being elected.hitler was also voted into power.
Quote:
Hmm. This 80% approval rating. You don't think it might possibly have something to do with the war in Afghanistan, the proposed action against Iraq, etc? Politicians love war - it really can save their bacon for them. Bushie wasn't looking too clever til the Twin Towers, - it might have been a disaster for America, but it sure was pie in the sky for him. Saved by the death knell, you might say.
actually bushes approval ratings were in the mid 60's at the time of the attack.his average rating was as good as clinton's at his best.
Quote:
Margeret Thatchers rating shot up when she took us to war against Argentina, in the fight for the Falkland islands. If a politician knows how to manipulate public opinion cleverly, (ie. understands the nation s/he's heading) then war can just what the doctor ordered. Some of us have wondered about Bush's insane stance towards Iraq. Could it be that with the effects of the Afghan campaign on the wane, he needs a new issue to jump up and down about?
so maggy was supposed to just leave the people of the falklands to the mercies of the argentinian dictator?
Quote:
But it was only a question of time. Of course when the cold war ended, America had to find a new enemy.
then you don't know a god damned thing about us if that is what you think.we would be happy if all the nations of the world were democracies who allowed their people to live in peace.then we wouldn't have to waste our money defending other people.
[/QUOTE]Lol Good responses but I think you were starting to bust a seam there at the end [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QB][/QUOTE]

God you have a simplistic take on the Israel/Palestine thing. I've argued it ad infinitum on the war forum, when it was up, and I'm not going to start again now. But if you think the Israelis are totally blameless in this, then all I can say is you haven't been watching, reading or listening. And as far as Arafat/Sharon goes, there aren't two pins to choose between them. Neither want the other side to be there, neither side gives a ■■■■ about anything except staying in power. And Sharon is just as much a murderous bastard as any suicide bomber. I see everything I've heard about the one sided reporting in the US media is totally correct.
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Old 04-25-2002, 08:26 PM   #97
John D Harris
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:

Now as you can see the USA is more efficent in it use of GAS for cars the great myth that we are not clean. The rest of the world clean your act up on auto emmissions, before you even think about pointing a finger at the USA. Europe & Japan are more efficeint in the turning of energy to final products, but then the size of the area and distance the raw matterials must be shipped to manufacturing, the to the consumers must be factored in (if you wish to be intellectually honest). The USA covers a much larger area then Western Europe, or Japan.
As for who, or whom is using energy the least efficient (MOST WASTEFULL) Why look it is Russia, China, and India, the every people Koyto (or What ever) would have let slide. Yeah,let the most wastefull slide and punish the most efficient that sounds like a good plan to me.
First off, it's not down to area covered, but to population. The US is very lightly populated in comparison with Europe. Countries like the Netherlands have very high populations in relativly small land areas. How about a population comparison?

Regarding China and India, sigh, Kyota is not letting them 'slide'. They are to be brought in on the second phase. The reason for that is that they are relatively newly industrialised in comparison with the West, and large segments of both countries are still not industrialised at all. Time is required. The West enjoyed centuries of regulation free emitting, and built up much wealth in the process. China and India are asking for a little time to get their act together. Emissions cutting is costly, and they don't have the same resources as we do.
[/QUOTE]That is Population density, not population! The USA IS NOT LIGHTLY POPULATED compared to Europe. It has a lower Population density, less people and more of mother nature's furry critters than Europe.

But what the heck we can reproduce and kill all the little furry creatures until we acheive that same population density if you like, I'll call my state congressman and get hunting season extended, Mind if I tell him you gave the OK? After all we need to have the same population density as Europe right?

Well, cut your countrie's emissions of auto exhast per vehicle, to our level per vehicle first, then we can talk about what needs to be done next.
SIGH***They are being let slide,**SIGH**, as you said yourself they are newly industrialized, they don't depend on industry like we do. Yet they are allowed to proportionally pollute at a Far higher level then anyone else. **SIGH** more primative industries = more pollution, higher level of industry you better nor pollute.
Doesn't sound to me like the real concern is pollution , but rather envy that some people have the things that they do, and others don't.
The old life isn't fair routine, well guess what, LIFE ISN"T FAIR. Who ever said it was!
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