Labor Day speech and unemployment...

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Cerek I'm willing to discuss the issues you brought up. I asked for some specific examples so we could discuss the issues in more detail. I'm still waiting for those so we can start the discussion.

What gave you the impression I want to discuss this with you to begin with...? Just wondering is all, given your lack of credibility with previous issues. This isn't like the time when you thought I wanted your personal support for Global Warming is it, lol?

That said, i'm not saying I won't have this discussion with you. But I have yet to make a decision on whether or not you are serious this time. Convince me in your response and I will rule.

[Azred]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior It's not an "attack" to simply recall why things are so bad. Or to wonder why he has not been jailed yet (or at least dragged to a televised trial in the style of Casey Anthony or OJ).

Fair enough, just make sure to state that Congress during those years are equally to blame--all the politicians helped makes things as they are now. I will reiterate, though, that he hasn't been brought to trial because he didn't violate any laws of the United States (and the laws of other nations do not apply).

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior If this was common knowledge and accepted why aren't the police using it on suspects?

Because citizens have methods of fighting back against police departments; those methods might not be completely just and they may take a long time but they do exist. We who are average citizens have absolutely no recourse whatsoever should we want to bring a case against the military.

Torture is an age-old technique of punishing captured prisoners, extracting information, or expressing a variety of psychological aberrations. Point to any random country on the map of the world and, at some point in time, the soldiers of that nation have used torture on others. Soldiers must always be prepared to face torture if they are captured.

MagiK and I discussed this topic from time to time. He was of the opinion that torture was a useful means of extracting information while I ascertained that it is not because the average subject will gladly sell out their own grandmother to make the pain stop at some point--information gained is what the subject thinks the torturer wants to hear.

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally Posted by Cerek The 2nd link doesn't seem to work.

Cerek, the 2nd link is a .PDF from the Bureau of Labor Statistic and contains the data ending AUG 11.

Could be your settings?

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Azred Fair enough, just make sure to state that Congress during those years are equally to blame--all the politicians helped makes things as they are now. I will reiterate, though, that he hasn't been brought to trial because he didn't violate any laws of the United States (and the laws of other nations do not apply). Because citizens have methods of fighting back against police departments; those methods might not be completely just and they may take a long time but they do exist. We who are average citizens have absolutely no recourse whatsoever should we want to bring a case against the military. Torture is an age-old technique of punishing captured prisoners, extracting information, or expressing a variety of psychological aberrations. Point to any random country on the map of the world and, at some point in time, the soldiers of that nation have used torture on others. Soldiers must always be prepared to face torture if they are captured. MagiK and I discussed this topic from time to time. He was of the opinion that torture was a useful means of extracting information while I ascertained that it is not because the average subject will gladly sell out their own grandmother to make the pain stop at some point--information gained is what the subject thinks the torturer wants to hear.

Not sure what you mean by people having no recourse against the military. Sue 'em, that's what everyone else does. No organization is too big, from Microsoft to the Catholic Church. They're all dragged to court. Or do you mean something else by this?

I'm with you mostly on the torture stuff. And yes, I agree people would sell out anyone if it meant ending such misery. I would.

Even if it didn't, and torture was a 100% successful and fully accepted pursuit and practice...it's still barbaric. Could you imagine if a family member of yours was falsely accused of something serious - framed even - and the FBI got a hold of that person and tortured them mercilessly just because they can? Physically and psychologically abused into confessing to something they didn't do. Deny it and the abuse will keep coming. Confess and you will be sentenced. I mean what kind of country would you live in when people are afraid of denying false charges against them?

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior What gave you the impression I want to discuss this with you to begin with...? Just wondering is all, given your lack of credibility with previous issues. This isn't like the time when you thought I wanted your personal support for Global Warming is it, lol? That said, i'm not saying I won't have this discussion with you. But I have yet to make a decision on whether or not you are serious this time. Convince me in your response and I will rule.

I knew all along you would just prance and prat about when asked to provide an example, but I gave you a chance anyway.
Same Old Song and Dance

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Cerek I knew all along you would just prance and prat about when asked to provide an example, but I gave you a chance anyway. Same Old Song and Dance

Deflect fail imo.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior If this was common knowledge and accepted why aren't the police using it on suspects?

They are. In the olden days it was obvious, but now the police have to be a little bit subtle. Having an "in" in the form of someone who sees it everyday, I can tell you straight out that the old regular beatings have been replaced by defendants accidentally hitting their heads on concrete walls or floors. It's still the same old same old.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior If this was common knowledge and accepted why aren't the police using it on suspects?

Short answer is they are, and always have been.

[SpiritWarrior]

Corruption and misuse of power yeah, no shockers there. But torture? I don't think anyone booked in tonight will come back claiming they were waterboarded at the sheriffs office until they confessed. Or burned repeatedly for a name.

But, I absolutely am aware of how many cops act and abuse their power. I have friends who were assaulted by cops. I was hit by one when I was a teenager. However, it was not torture - just a slap, because he was mad I could run faster than him lol.

[machinehead]

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis Short answer is they are, and always have been.

Yep, a friend of mine was in a fight outside of a bar and was grabbed from behind by a cop who didn't identify himself. He got a nunchuck to the side of his head. When my friend got to the station 5 cops proceeded to beat the shit out of him and he got to be a guest of the State for 2 years to boot. At least that's his side of the story.