America never gets help!!!

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Please let us mourn and then worry about enlightening folk on the ills of the world, ok? Cloudy

I have to disagree with this sentiment, Cloudy. No time is better or more crucial in this situation than the present -- before we do something really stupid in response, because of those very emotions.

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Objection Counselor! Highly prejudicial where did Nostron use the word "just". The introduction of that word changes the whole meaning of his statement. Will the court reporter please read back Nostron's statement ************************************************** ****************************** Originally posted by Nostron: Okay okay okay... i get it. But about my other point that other countries are labeling the U.S. as some kind of war mongrel when they try to help the people over throw an unfair government. Yes it's true that we are proud to be self sufficient but all iam asking is that other countries shouldn't label our contry all these negative names just because we are trying to help ************************************************** ****************************** Haitti 1992 (I believe maybe '93) Panama 1989 Dominican Republic early '60's Soviet Block 1945-1990

John D and Nostron, sorry if I am misreading your post, but to me it seems to be saying that the US gets flak from other countries when we try to help them, particularly when we try to help them overthrow an "unfair" government.

Much of the hostility in the world against the US comes from situations where the majority of the people in a given country didn't particularly care for our version of "help" -- the type of "help" rammmed down their throats whether they wanted it or not. The type of "help" which involves propping up a local government unwanted by the people themselves, and often abusive of the rights or even the lives of the people, but which the US deems safer for its own interests.

The US has a long and sad history of this sort of thing -- something that is glossed over quickly, or more often not mentioned at all, in Amercian high school history textbooks.

However, rest assured that the people in the countries that have been on the receiving end of such "help" remember it -- and many of them hold bitterness and even hatred in their hearts towards the US. I can't say I blame them. Certainly any red blooded American would feel exactly the same way if his own country were treated in such a fashion by an outside power.

John D, regarding the examples you mentioned above, the US can not be said to have been acting solely for the benefit of the people of those countries. Sometimes it happens that the self interest of the US may coincide at a particular point in time with the self interest of another country. That does not change the basic truth that the US tends to act in its own self interest (the same as any other government in the world).

Panama was hardly an example of the US acting on behalf of the people of Panama. Several thousand Panamanian civilians were killed (iirc) (and the members of the Panamanian military forces who dared try to resist), and widespread destruction of civilian property occurred in our overwhelming military invasion -- all in the name of seizing the leader of another country to be tried in US courts on Drug Charges! At a time when the CIA itself may have been involved in that drug trade. The CIA had certainly helped train Noriega, and worked with him -- the US decided he was a bad guy only when he stopped following our orders and became stubbornly independent. The whole thing was quite incredible, one of the more recent examples of the long standing tradition of very heavy handed US approach to protecting its interests in Latin America with military force.

Haiti -- hmmm . . . sorry, don't remember the details of this one. From what I remember it was a short invasion by Reagan that was quickly successful with minimal casualties. Again, however, I doubt the US was acting first and foremost with the interest of the people of Haiti in mind.

I'm not familiar with the Dominican Republic episode you refer to. Perhaps you could enlighten me

Soviet Bloc: It is quite well settled in history that the US was opposing the Soviet Union for reasons of its own -- namely to protect the American way of life against communism. The fact that other nations were allied with the US only shows that the self interests of different nations can coincide. It doesn't change the fact that the bottom line for the US was preserving itself against what was perceived to be a threat so serious that it endangered the whole world.

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by bilqis: http://www.surakomol.com/freedom.jpg/

Bilquis, if by the picture of the raising of the flag by the Marines on Iwo Jima you mean to give an example of the US government helping another country, (My apologies if this was not your point) remember that the US sat by for over 2 long years while Hitler overran almost all of Europe, and only became involved in World War II when its own military forces were directly attacked by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor in an action that seriously damaged the US pacific fleet. The US was so reluctant to get involved, even though the entire world was threatened with ruin, that even the sinking of an American Destroyer, the Reuben James, by a German U-boat did not provoke us into the war prior to that. World War II is definitely not an example of the US fighting because of the interests of other countries.

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: I have never seen Dio argue himself into a corner. He is one of the most reasonable people in this forum. I don't ALWAYS agree with him, but I often do, and in this I do. America is not crippled. You have been wounded (as have the countries who had citizens in the Towers), but it is not a death-blow, nor even seriously disabling, even though it IS the most painful wound you have ever suffered, and even though the rest of the world (including me) DOES feel your pain. You are bereaved and grieving and shocked and you have the support and sympathy of the world. But you are a great nation and you will overcome the pain and heal your wound. But PLEASE do not expect the all but terminally crippled countries of this world to be able to offer much assistance.

Thanks, Fljotsdale. I have been discouraged here lately and your post means a lot Love you too

Moraine, I'm not sure how serious you were, but Western countries like France are not what I had in mind. Sorry if this clarification strikes you as "arguing myself into a corner", Khan.

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-16-2001).]

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Bilquis, if by the picture of the raising of the flag by the Marines on Iwo Jima you mean to give an example of the US government helping another country, (My apologies if this was not your point) remember that the US sat by for over 2 long years while Hitler overran almost all of Europe, and only became involved in World War II when its own military forces were directly attacked by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor in an action that seriously damaged the US pacific fleet. The US was so reluctant to get involved, even though the entire world was threatened with ruin, that even the sinking of an American Destroyer, the Reuben James, by a German U-boat did not provoke us into the war prior to that. World War II is definitely not an example of the US fighting because of the interests of other countries.

Dio, can you tell us what countries did join that war without being attacked first? Oh and I certainly don't condone watching Hitler destroy and pillage throughout Europe without any action, but I'd love to know what the US government's reasons were. Aside from self-preservation, that is.

CB

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: I have to disagree with this sentiment, Cloudy. No time is better or more crucial in this situation than the present -- before we do something really stupid in response, because of those very emotions.

Sorry Dio, but in the grip of those emotions, people don't stop and listen to such things. Perhaps they should, I'm not arguing with you, just stating the fact of human nature as I've experienced it.

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[250]

sigh... the more countries involved, the uglier it will get

it would be better if it is just Bush vs Bin Laden in a ten round midweight boxing, or Thai Kick

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 09-16-2001).]

[Tobbin]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Bilquis, if by the picture of the raising of the flag by the Marines on Iwo Jima you mean to give an example of the US government helping another country, (My apologies if this was not your point) remember that the US sat by for over 2 long years while Hitler overran almost all of Europe, and only became involved in World War II when its own military forces were directly attacked by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor in an action that seriously damaged the US pacific fleet. The US was so reluctant to get involved, even though the entire world was threatened with ruin, that even the sinking of an American Destroyer, the Reuben James, by a German U-boat did not provoke us into the war prior to that. World War II is definitely not an example of the US fighting because of the interests of other countries.

It is just symbolic of a nation taking itself back. The photographer who took the picture noticed how close the action resembled the famous image and wanted to help show America that we weren't going to allow terrorism to destroy us. It was a message of hope. Not that we expected others to come rallying to our cause.

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Protectorate of the OHF
Death Waits 4 U ALL

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Thanks, Fljotsdale. I have been discouraged here lately and your post means a lot Love you too [This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-16-2001).]

Dio, don't get discouraged. Don't take things personally, mate! People feel just as passionately about their opinions as you do. I think you're a credit to this board - you always argue the point, not the person. You are the perfect example of how to carry on a debate - expressing a view in a courteous, articulate and respectful manner.

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[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Memnoch: Dio, don't get discouraged. Don't take things personally, mate! People feel just as passionately about their opinions as you do. I think you're a credit to this board - you always argue the point, not the person. You are the perfect example of how to carry on a debate - expressing a view in a courteous, articulate and respectful manner.

Absolutely!


Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."