For those Catholics/Christians in Religion out there...

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Aviendha: If the Bible doesn't say squat, where the Hell do all these Angel stories come from?

2 Peter 2

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment;
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Jude 1

6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
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Revelation 12

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
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[Yorick]

From Ezekiel 28 we have a message concerning the king of Tyre. It seems to be using the metaphor of the fall of Lucifer:

11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [2] turquoise and beryl. [3]
Your settings and mountings [4] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

[ 06-20-2002, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

And another from Isaiah using the same metaphor:

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [3]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

[/)eathKiller]

yes, God chose the best to do the worst for reasons that souls had a 50/50 chance almost, not all are worthy of heaven, some deserve it, not. Unfortunetly, too many people end up being pointed out as "undeserving" when their accusors end up being "undeserving" themselves. It is quite an ironic thing, but like all things in God's creation, it has a purpose...

[Yorick]

Harkoliar, as this is a prophecy concerning the fate of Lucifer, I don't think the "volunteering to be devils advocate" idea is a biblical one.

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From Revelation 20

10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
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Note that the devil is tormented day and night in a lake of burning sulfur. Those who's name is not in "the book of life" have a different fate:

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Revelation 20

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Note, the SECOND DEATH aspect, and that it's a lake of fire here not sulfur as before. Seems a different fate with a different outcome to me.

Anyhow, enough from me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-20-2002, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[theifprowess]

no one can or even wants to touch my original question why not?

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

If you say "Come look at this before I flush it"....you just might be a redneck. If you say "Osama is a great holy figure".....you just might be a terrorist. Hope that cleared things up for you

LOW BLOW CALEB
I think the point that Thief was trying to make is that just because one religion say you will burn for killing people doesnt mean another one does. So if religion 'A' says you burn in hell for killing and religion 'B' says you dont , then which one is the correct answer??

useing your exaple if you say "catholic priests are swell people"........you just might be a pedophile also.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by theifprowess: what you fail to see is that to osama and his followers, they are doing to their own sense a holy act and are looked upon with great pride. your religion dictates that that is wrong to do that. to act in a terrorist fashion. who does god believe is in the right and who is in the wrong? according to them you guys are in the wrong they are in the right. to you guys they are in the wrong and you are in the right. thus conflict of interests in religion occur and war is inevitable. can one person here prove me wrong?

NOT FLAMING HERE
The problem with you question is the assumption that both sides are following what their respected religions actualy say(or religious book ie: Bible, Koran, Torah etc.). I submit they are following what they perceive their religions to say, or more accurately what men have told them their religious book says! That usually comes about because people enter into religious study with their own perconceived ideas, good old fashioned laziness, or an unwillingnes to eccept responsibility for their own actions. Three qualities that are not limited just to the religious amongst us (humans).

Now on topic. Angels, all I know is that I am created lower then Them, and I too wonder why God is mindful of me, thankful He is.
It doesn't matter to me why, how, or what for that God cast Lucifer down, just He did.

All this Lucifer talk reminds me of an old joke.
There were three guys standing around and Lucifer comes up to them and says.
"If you can name anything I can't do I'll grant your ultimite desires, but if I can do it, I get to take your soul to Hell"
The guys say "Ok"
The first guys says "Jump over the Empire State biulding backwards"
Lucifer says "piece of cake". Does it and takes the guy's soul.
The second guy says "pick up the Golden Gate Bridge and bring it here"
Lucifer says "piece of cake" does it and take the guy's soul.
The third guy is scared He can't come up with anything. Just then he lets out a big fart. He quickly says to Lucifer "Catch that and paint it purple"

[ 06-20-2002, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[theifprowess]

if we are respected figures in religion we know that it is wrong to kill regardless of what the cause is. if there is a dispute then why can it not be settled with words or action not resulting in death?.if you live in america and where told by your government you had to help fight and kill in a war because it is your patriotic duty? or would you "draft dodge" and get outta the country to respect your morality and beliefs.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by theifprowess: if we are respected figures in religion we know that it is wrong to kill regardless of what the cause is. if there is a dispute then why can it not be settled with words or action not resulting in death?.if you live in america and where told by your government you had to help fight and kill in a war because it is your patriotic duty? or would you "draft dodge" and get outta the country to respect your morality and beliefs.

Murder is wrong, is all killing murder? I don't believe it to be wrong to kill in defense of one's family, loved ones, or friends. If sombody else believes it to be wrong so be it, they will, and they alone will answer to God for their actions. As will I, and I alone will answer for my actions. All disputes can be settled with words if Both sides are willing. If only one side is willing it won't be settled by words.