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Old 10-16-2002, 02:11 PM   #71
whacky
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Join Date: July 16, 2002
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
Continuing to read this thread jogs all the old physics memories and cleans out (a small amount of) the cobwebs. But, it makes me really more interested in the *silly string* theory than in anything else. (No, not a typo )

Okay you math geniuses (geniuii?), What about this:
A black hole's gravity is greater than the speed of light - no light escapes and time is warped. Okay, let's assume you are in a spaceship that can withstand the gravity, heat, etc. This gravity would mean that your acceleration rate (9.81 m/s2 here on Earth) as you fall toward the black hole would be quite high - high enough to make your velocity approach light speed as you were pulled toward the black hole. Your terminal velocity would then be infinitely close to the speed of light. Wouldn't this warp time to slow it down? I mean, it would pass normally for you, but the outside world would percieve you as unmoving and time-stopped (or infinitely close to time-stopped). What then? Does the black hole expire over time, leaving you to pop out into blank space before you crash into the center of the black hole, as you were unmoving for all intents and purposes?

Also, I understand the math behind the theory that "c" is the absolute universal posted Speed Limit. But, if the force created by a black hole keeps photons from escaping, wouldn't that cause objects falling at the black hole to move greater than the speed of light?

Okay, new HEADACHE. [img]graemlins/uhoh2.gif[/img]
That has got something to do with the quantised nature of the universe, if things were "analogue" i.e smooth a lot of things would have driven physicists crazy

Another stumbling block in my ideas is the question :
What happens to matter once it achieves the speed of light i.e if it ever can ?
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Old 10-16-2002, 02:13 PM   #72
Lord Shield
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Quote:
Originally posted by whacky:
LS if you are true then i assume my perception of time to be true i.e motion defines the entity we call time. What do you say ?
LOL!!! I think man made it out of boredom rather than motion

if by motion you are referring to us seeing things moving so we know "time" is passing I don't agree to be honest.

However, you can be in a quiet room for some time and duration will still pass. Things will still change that you cannot see (light moving, air particles, the blood in your body flowing, etc...). This defines change which i think defines man's perception of time
 
Old 10-16-2002, 02:18 PM   #73
whacky
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Join Date: July 16, 2002
Location: The Abyss
Age: 30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Shield:
quote:
Originally posted by whacky:
LS if you are true then i assume my perception of time to be true i.e motion defines the entity we call time. What do you say ?
LOL!!! I think man made it out of boredom rather than motion

if by motion you are referring to us seeing things moving so we know "time" is passing I don't agree to be honest.

However, you can be in a quiet room for some time and duration will still pass. Things will still change that you cannot see (light moving, air particles, the blood in your body flowing, etc...). This defines change which i think defines man's perception of time
[/QUOTE]Yes change is what i was referring to .... perhaps we should meet considering that we have quite similar ideas .......
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Old 10-16-2002, 04:48 PM   #74
JeraalMordeth
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Join Date: July 26, 2002
Location: USA
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Quote:
Also, I understand the math behind the theory that "c" is the absolute universal posted Speed Limit. But, if the force created by a black hole keeps photons from escaping, wouldn't that cause objects falling at the black hole to move greater than the speed of light?

Okay, new HEADACHE
Nope, because of a number of factors in relativity, but the easiest one is to say that the kinetic energy of the object has mass. As you increase the mass of an object its inertia goes up. So even though the curvature of space-time is approaching infinite right near the singularity, the amount required to further accelerate the object also approaches infinite.

Also, just to clarify, the curvature around a black hole is continuos right up to the singularity, and follows all of Newton's laws to the letter. According to Newton an object may be considered as a single point anyway, so if the sun were to collapse into a black hole tommorrow we would never know the difference in terms of gravity. Only the light would be missed.
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Old 10-17-2002, 06:27 AM   #75
whacky
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Join Date: July 16, 2002
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*BUMP*

Its a good and healthy discussion so people "should" see and read it. Im my opinion it deservers the first page
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Old 10-17-2002, 07:18 AM   #76
Epona
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by whacky:
*BUMP*

Its a good and healthy discussion so people "should" see and read it. Im my opinion it deservers the first page
Whacky, I agree completely. In my opinion this is probably the single most profound and interesting thread I have ever taken part in here at IW/Escape. I just wish I could dig out some of my books about Quantum Theory, but they are all in storage
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Old 10-17-2002, 10:11 AM   #77
Thoran
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Join Date: January 10, 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Age: 50
Posts: 2,109
Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
Continuing to read this thread jogs all the old physics memories and cleans out (a small amount of) the cobwebs. But, it makes me really more interested in the *silly string* theory than in anything else. (No, not a typo )

Okay you math geniuses (geniuii?), What about this:
A black hole's gravity is greater than the speed of light - no light escapes and time is warped. Okay, let's assume you are in a spaceship that can withstand the gravity, heat, etc. This gravity would mean that your acceleration rate (9.81 m/s2 here on Earth) as you fall toward the black hole would be quite high - high enough to make your velocity approach light speed as you were pulled toward the black hole. Your terminal velocity would then be infinitely close to the speed of light. Wouldn't this warp time to slow it down? I mean, it would pass normally for you, but the outside world would percieve you as unmoving and time-stopped (or infinitely close to time-stopped). What then? Does the black hole expire over time, leaving you to pop out into blank space before you crash into the center of the black hole, as you were unmoving for all intents and purposes?

Also, I understand the math behind the theory that "c" is the absolute universal posted Speed Limit. But, if the force created by a black hole keeps photons from escaping, wouldn't that cause objects falling at the black hole to move greater than the speed of light?

Okay, new HEADACHE. [img]graemlins/uhoh2.gif[/img]
I'm making a couple assumptions her that I don't have time to verify right now, so correct me if I'm wrong... but:
Because you have mass you won't actually accelerate to C, and long before you reach relativistic speeds you'll pass through the Event Horizon of the singularity. At this point any light that illuminates you and your ship will be captured by the singularity, therefore you won't be seen in this universe again (with one possible exception I'll talk about in a minute). The theory of how you would look as you approach the event horizon however is strikingly similar to your idea. The theory is that an outside observer will see you slow as you approach the event horizon (due to the distortion of space by the black hole) and you will appear to stop, frozen just before you pass the singularity. Now at the same time less and less light is illuminating you and escaping so you'll be getting dimmer, AND what light does escape will be redshifted by the gravitational forces... so it could be that the outside observer will just see you fade away in red before you reach the horizon.

Once your at the singularity and all squished into the size of an atom nucleus, there's a theory that some of you might be able to escape the hole through the use of Quantum Physics and the wave nature of Particles. Apparently there's a probability that a particle of you will exist outside the event horizon, so they call it an Imaginary Particle (or something like that) and give it a Probability distribution of being real. So for every X of imaginary particles that COULD escape the black hole during time t, some percentage DOES. Sounds weird but there's real applications of this principal in use today. Tunneling Diodes use this basic principal to operate. What this means is that once a Black Hole sucks in all the matter it can get, it will slowly die.

This universe is stranger than we know
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Old 10-18-2002, 05:46 AM   #78
Yorick
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 46
Posts: 9,226
Quote:
Originally posted by Epona:
quote:
Originally posted by whacky:
*BUMP*

Its a good and healthy discussion so people "should" see and read it. Im my opinion it deservers the first page
Whacky, I agree completely. In my opinion this is probably the single most profound and interesting thread I have ever taken part in here at IW/Escape. I just wish I could dig out some of my books about Quantum Theory, but they are all in storage [/QUOTE]Then I'll bump it for you.

I love this discussion too. Very very interesting. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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