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Old 09-24-2003, 02:00 AM   #41
Firestormalpha
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Faith plays a huge part in religion, Azred. But faith without facts is blind and often percieved as being foolish. So why not substantiate your claim, with facts, to those who question you with facts?

P.S. historically any atheist who has set out to disprove the Bible, and has taken the results of their own research seriously has found it utterly factual. C.S. Lewis for one examle IIRC.
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Old 09-24-2003, 03:40 AM   #42
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At the end of the day, people will believe exactly what they want to believe, and the fanatical (or heavily entrenched) devotees of each camp will probably shurg off any 'facts' or scientific proof - or put their own spin on it. Personally, I don't think pure, clinical human reasoning really exists: everything is coloured by opinion and experience.

*shrugs* Interesting for debate, but I preffer to go back to Voltaire's stance on the whole thing.

""yes," said Candide, "but we must go and work in the garden.""
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Old 09-24-2003, 04:04 AM   #43
esquire
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If one has faith... why does one want to 'prove' what they 'believe' is 'true'? Isn't the whole point of 'faith' being able to believe something without proof?

---

One thing I love about being an atheist. Relying on the scientific method to define my reality simplifies existence greatly. Don't have to worry about supernatural forces plotting against me, or any other mystical powers operating beyond my control. Nope!

Its just me vs. entropy, wouldn't have it any other way.
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Old 09-24-2003, 04:09 AM   #44
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Wouldn't that be a little naive ?
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Old 09-24-2003, 04:13 AM   #45
esquire
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Oh and ah...just to clear up one tiny little thing,

FYI: All life on this planet evolved from blue-green algae starting around 3.5billion years ago.

Thats right everyone, we come from slime.

That is all.
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Old 09-24-2003, 04:20 AM   #46
esquire
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
Wouldn't that be a little naive ?
No actually it would be the exact opposite of that.
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Old 09-24-2003, 06:53 AM   #47
Cerek the Barbaric
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Quote:
Originally posted by esquire:
If one has faith... why does one want to 'prove' what they 'believe' is 'true'? Isn't the whole point of 'faith' being able to believe something without proof?

---

One thing I love about being an atheist. Relying on the scientific method to define my reality simplifies existence greatly. Don't have to worry about supernatural forces plotting against me, or any other mystical powers operating beyond my control. Nope!

Its just me vs. entropy, wouldn't have it any other way.
It's already been mentioned, but "faith without proof is blind". Now it's true that much of the "proof" believers receive is intangible (answers to prayer, feelings of divine guidance in their lives, etc). However, it just gives a measure of confirmation when certain places, events, or structures mentioned in the Bible are "proven" by science to actually have existed or occurred.

As for your reliance on scientific methodology, Yorick is very fond of pointing out that you are still - in effect - accepting the results on faith, since you don't know for certain that the scientists have conducted all their tests accurately or that they have followed proper scientific methods in conducting their research.

In fact, in a long ago debate, it was brought out that much of today's research scientists are funded by specific groups or interests, and this funding bodies have specific results that they want their scientists to prove...so the research is "skewed" from the very beginning, since the funding body has already told the scientists what results they want their research to find (this accusation was confirmed by a former researcher on the board). Not saying that your reliance on scientific method is any worse than mine on an Omnipotent Deity....just pointing out that the scientific method isn't as pure and untainted as most percieve it to be.
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Old 09-24-2003, 09:23 AM   #48
Azred
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Quote:
Originally posted by Firestormalpha:
Faith plays a huge part in religion, Azred. But faith without facts is blind and often percieved as being foolish. So why not substantiate your claim, with facts, to those who question you with facts?
Faith backed by scientific research isn't real faith. It is blind faith, the kind of faith children have, that allows one to discover the path to God (in whatever incarnation you believe). Faith is what sustains the true believer through life's trials, not science. For example, take the Catholic Sacrament of Mass. No scientific test imaginable can prove that bread and wine have become the Body and Blood of Christ, but through faith it does indeed become those.

*sigh* All that theology and philosophy I understand yet I don't believe....isn't that ridiculous? I suppose I must walk my own path....
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Old 09-24-2003, 10:34 AM   #49
Firestormalpha
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Quote:
Originally posted by esquire:
Oh and ah...just to clear up one tiny little thing,

FYI: All life on this planet evolved from blue-green algae starting around 3.5billion years ago.

Thats right everyone, we come from slime.

That is all.
Umm, Esquire, you are very much behind the times in the scientific community. Not too many scientists are so sure that we came from slime anymore. It can't be proven either way. We weren't there when it happened, and we have yet to observe actual speciation on a large scale. By the time a species would have adapted enough to be protected against another millenium long ice age it would have frozen to death.

Azred, the scientific proof isn't so much for the believers support as it is for the unbeliever.

[ 09-24-2003, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Firestormalpha ]
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Old 09-24-2003, 01:15 PM   #50
Vaskez
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Quote:
Originally posted by esquire:
Don't have to worry about supernatural forces plotting against me, or any other mystical powers operating beyond my control. Nope!

Its just me vs. entropy, wouldn't have it any other way.
Ah the good old ostrich head in the sand tactic. Hide and hope it will go away. What IS Supernatural. It is only something that humans either cannot yet understand and cannot explain with current science so it is said to be "supernatural" or it is something that we will never understand. It's slightly naive to believe that we can/will understand everything in the universe. It's also arrogant. The only logical explanation is that something "supernatural" governed the creation of nature. Who do you think created entropy? And who created the laws of science that we are discovering? The atoms just popped into existance one day and started off the process that resulted in gasses compressing into planets and stars and the molecules rearranging to form life which then evolved into intelligent beings capable of learning? I find it an almost infinite stretch of the imagination. There must be some eternal intelligent force out there, the only logical explanation IMO.
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