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Old 09-23-2003, 07:06 AM   #31
Intrepid
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I agree with everything you said Yorick
except the adam and eve theory i have thought about it myself amd I came to the same conclusion as you about the inbreeding and inperfections but I think it's just a story use to explain to christians an unanswerable question. I believe in God and am a catholic but I too believe in evoloution, it is hard to understand I guess this story is meant to help, I find even my idea to explain hard. Also the old testament is a little well... sketchey so not everything in it is allways intermrited the way it was meant to be...

[ 09-23-2003, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Intrepid ]
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Old 09-23-2003, 07:23 AM   #32
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It's 7 am and I havn,t gone to sleep yet, but I'll comment on your thread after I get some sleep, too.

It's hard to discuss it without talking too much about my own belief, and I don't want to talk about that in this thread, but there are a few things I'd like to say.

But before I go, I want to comment on your math about population... Don't forget that the great flood killed off almost everybody, and that there were some plagues that wiped off more than 50% of our population, and that's without counting wars.

There is also the fact that back then, birth giving was in horrible conditions, and mothers often died, so it would not be as easy as you calculated it. And also, in your math, you didn't calculate the people that don't get to mate. Some people die single, and the male to female ration is also not 50%.

I considered making the math myself when I made my last post, but it sounded too complicated, so I gave up. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Edit: How would Noa manage to get a couple of every animals on Earth? There are so many species, especially back then, before we killed many. Also, how did he get them back to their natural habitat after the flood, and for that mather, how would their habitat survive? It seem to me that such a flood would kill off every tree and plants, too. Where did all the different kind of vegetation come from? Also, why is there no trace of the flood? Surely such a big flood would have moved things around, we should be finding more fossils and sedentation resulting from it, right?

[ 09-23-2003, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: Luvian ]
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Old 09-23-2003, 07:44 AM   #33
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As usual, some excellent points by Yorick and some good points on the other side too IMO. For the record I believe in creation AND evolution i.e. the story in genesis is symbolic: the 7 days should not be taken literally, for that is against the rules God has created for this world. Instead they represent 7 stages each lasting millions or billions of years - the times calculated scientifically for the evolution of stars, planets etc. Now I don't know about anyone else, but the way I look at it is: can you ask ANY object in the world "did you create yourself" and it will answer "yes"? I don't think so. No atom can say that. There must've been something before the big bang. Why is it so hard to believe that one being is the source of everything? SOMETHING must be the source... the rest is detail...it takes a lot more faith to believe in randomness than a thought-out planned creation, after all look how well the world functions - simple nuclei of protons and neutrons with electrons whizzing round have become humans who can think, feel and learn. The Bible is one source that backs up this theory of one being creating everything. If you believe the first step, the next steps follow. Just my thoughts.
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Old 09-23-2003, 09:27 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
It's not insane. It's a perfectly solid line of reasoning. The Greek and Arthurian mythologies present facts which are clearly incorrect when compared against other historical works covering the same period. Therefore one can make reasonable assumptions about the correctness (or not) of those things which require a stretch of belief.
Ooo, I'd be careful there. The later romance works of Malory and his predecessors certainly leave a lot of likelihood to be desired. I'm talking about the real celtic histories, or what we have of them that has been pieced together. There's a lot of 'real' history in those, right down to identified historical personalities and sites. I'd feel inclined to suggest that the Bible has a number of advantages over arthurian lore when it comes to authentication via archaeology, and that it's unfair for you to dismiss them so. There's a fair dollop of pagan mystery in the old lore too, but nothing's been found to disprove that. Sneer at it, though, and you might get a few die-hard arthurian-fan Wiccans in a tizzy.

[ 09-23-2003, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Tancred ]
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Old 09-23-2003, 10:32 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vaskez:
SOMETHING must be the source... the rest is detail...it takes a lot more faith to believe in randomness than a thought-out planned creation, after all look how well the world functions - simple nuclei of protons and neutrons with electrons whizzing round have become humans who can think, feel and learn. The Bible is one source that backs up this theory of one being creating everything. If you believe the first step, the next steps follow. Just my thoughts.
Wooow! Let's kick back here for a while. You say something must be the source, and because you believe in both God and the evolution theory, I conclude that you are talking about God here. But why should someone or something that was the source be a God; an omnipotent something that we probably can't even comprehend? The idea of 'something that is the source' suits me just fine, but I do not like that idea of religious believers that there is someone out there who knows all etc. and that we must pay heed to that mysterious person.

God to me is something/someone that our human mind made up to comprehend the things that weren't comprehendable. Bear in mind that modern day man knows much much more in terms of science, chemistry, weather, astronomy and so on than mankind in the time of Jesus Christ. We know now why and how thunder is caused, how the elemenents work, and what happens when we combine chemical elements.
The human mind wants a solution, or at least something reachable or understandable, to everything, and if we do not know something we either find the answer to it, or we make up that answer to fill the gaps in our conscience. A simple example is the idea of extraterrestrial life. We don't know about it, and we try to find an answer to it, but since there is no evidence for any conclusion at all, all kinds of theories emerge around the world about aliens. The idea of being alone in the universe is for many people scary; we are a single ant in a giant room where nobody else is. That thought is disturbing to many people so they cannot think otherwise than that there is extraterrestrial life.

I may be offending a lot of people here, but this is just my idea of how people think about God. I believe wholehearedly in evolution, because I cannot begin to comprehend (or understand) something not physical and spiritual such as (a) God.
To me people who dismiss evolution as something from a fairytale, and do not have any arguments for that are just being ignorant (may sound harsh, but I can't find the correct words). Earth has been here for a great deal of billions of years! Life has been here for a couple of million years, and intelligent life (as if life at itself is not intelligent enough) has been some thousand years. The first organisms were nothing more than single celled beings that had enormously simple 'bodies'. Now, we are complex creatures with cells that have different functions, all because of evolution.

As much as I want to believe in a God (I have incredible admiration for those who do and can) I for one don't believe in Him. The human mind, and the thoughts that originate from it are the direct consequences for such a belief IMHO.
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Old 09-23-2003, 11:08 AM   #36
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Vaskez, If God created the rules, why can't he work around them? Is an almightly creator of reality to be restricted by the reality he has created? Someone who is presumed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Who's to say he couldn't have created everything in an instant as opposed to 7 days or 7 million years? I couldn't verify scientifically that information, but if he's supposed to be all powerful then why do we limit him by our own imaginations?

As to the point of evolution? Define evolution. Do you mean the change of one species into another to promote it's survival (Darwinism), or the standard genetic drift that has been proven? Darwin's theories have yet to be proven; we have yet to see in the expanse of years since Darwin made his theory a single species change into something completely different. As things seem, it would be impossible. If the offspring differs from the parent too much, the mother tends to kill it. The process of evolution as stated by Darwin would also take so long the the species would have died out long before it adapted to the newly adverse conditions. In the words of one of my own biology teachers: "What's the difference between Darwin's theory on evolution and the fairy tale The Frog Prince? About 2 billion years."
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Old 09-23-2003, 01:43 PM   #37
Vaskez
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Quote:
Originally posted by Firestormalpha:
Vaskez, If God created the rules, why can't he work around them? Is an almightly creator of reality to be restricted by the reality he has created? Someone who is presumed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Who's to say he couldn't have created everything in an instant as opposed to 7 days or 7 million years? I couldn't verify scientifically that information, but if he's supposed to be all powerful then why do we limit him by our own imaginations?

There'd be no point. Scientific evidence shows how planets etc. came into their current form and how worlds evolved. Therefore I believe in the application of science and theology beyond that. I believe God only "interfered" a few times in the world in the whole of its history: once when he created the first particles and the laws of physics etc. Once when he first created simple life from those particles (and set off evolution). And once when he breathed intelligence into apes to create humans. Therefore why should he create the world in 7 days when he can just start it off and let the laws of physics etc. do the rest.
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Old 09-23-2003, 01:49 PM   #38
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Take THAT non-believers!
 
Old 09-23-2003, 03:16 PM   #39
Chewbacca
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
Just out of curiosity.... how does the Koran explain how the first humans got here ? I take it they don't have the version of Adam and Eve ?
Source: World Scripture, A Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts

Quote:
God it is Who created the heavens and the earth,
and that which is between them, in six days.
Then He mounted the throne.
You have not, beside Him, a protecting friend or mediator.
Will you not then remember?
He directs the ordinance from the heaven to the earth;
then it ascends to Him in a Day, whose measure is
a thousand years of your reckoning.
Such is the Knower of the invisible and the visible,
the Mighty, the Merciful,
Who made all things good which He created.
And He began the creation of man from clay;
then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;
then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His spirit;
and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts.
Small thanks you give!

2. Islam. Qur'an 32.4-9
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Old 09-24-2003, 01:24 AM   #40
Azred
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[img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] I thought religion was based not on science but faith. Isn't believing through faith better? Why the need for a scientific proof that your holy book is historically accurate?
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