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Old 01-30-2002, 11:09 AM   #21
MagiK
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quote:
Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:

I know what you mean but does that make it right?


phallacy

- it is not enough in my eyes to simply say "this is how it happened, ever more shall that be how things are done".

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Barry the Sprout ]



Umm yeah I think it does make it right for men to be men and women to be women, we are desigend that way and it works fairly well that way.


I think you ment falacy not phalacy...the "ph" version sort of indicates genitalia [img]smile.gif[/img] I make those same kinds of typing mistakes but I just thought in this "Gender" thread it was a little more humorous so I pointed it out [img]smile.gif[/img]
 
Old 01-30-2002, 11:22 AM   #22
MagiK
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quote:
Originally posted by Epona:


I'm finding this highly amusing - where the heck do you get your 'facts'? I am not a historical revisionist, I am an archaeologist. We are talking pre-history. Which sites do you base your interpretation on?




Unlike you I graduated quite some time ago..back when they still taught things like science and history in the public schools (yes I know you live in the UK and not the USA) but my point is, I am not going to call up book titles and author names, and yes I know some theories have been revised but what I said was correct. You could post some controverting facts or theories, but in the end, it was men who went out and explored, who conquered the world, who waged the wars, who plundered and pillaged and in general caused the advances and the mayhem. Women have not been the pioneers in general, again I know there were historical exception but the Madam Curries and the Joan of Arcs and the Amazonian women were the exceptions. Can you show me evidence of or any indication that women spearheaded these activities? There is no real evidence that I have seen made public that women were ever treated more than chattle in the ancient world on a regular basis. Exceptions do exist but again the "NORM" was subservient and less influential wome though I will grant that women held a certain amount of influence but it was usually in a less overt way, it was behind closed doors. If I feel like it when I get home I might post a few history titles for you...but since I have a dinner date (which I as the male am paying for) I may not have the time. Like it or not, untill recent modern times, women were at best second class citizens for the most part. And still are in a large part of the world.


I realize that the very committed feminists do not want to acknowledge these things and when they do they tend to just shove it all off on the fact that men are pigs.

PS. You asked me about references and proofs but I notice you didnt post any controverting publications.
 
Old 01-30-2002, 11:23 AM   #23
MagiK
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AZUREWOLF!!! Darn you to heck for useing my own post to make me waste so much of my time today
 
Old 01-30-2002, 11:25 AM   #24
Epona
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quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:



Unlike you I graduated quite some time ago..back when they still taught things like science and history in the public schools (yes I know you live in the UK and not the USA) but my point is, I am not going to call up book titles and author names, and yes I know some theories have been revised but what I said was correct. You could post some controverting facts or theories, but in the end, it was men who went out and explored, who conquered the world, who waged the wars, who plundered and pillaged and in general caused the advances and the mayhem. Women have not been the pioneers in general, again I know there were historical exception but the Madam Curries and the Joan of Arcs and the Amazonian women were the exceptions. Can you show me evidence of or any indication that women spearheaded these activities? There is no real evidence that I have seen made public that women were ever treated more than chattle in the ancient world on a regular basis. Exceptions do exist but again the "NORM" was subservient and less influential wome though I will grant that women held a certain amount of influence but it was usually in a less overt way, it was behind closed doors. If I feel like it when I get home I might post a few history titles for you...but since I have a dinner date (which I as the male am paying for) I may not have the time. Like it or not, untill recent modern times, women were at best second class citizens for the most part. And still are in a large part of the world.


I realize that the very committed feminists do not want to acknowledge these things and when they do they tend to just shove it all off on the fact that men are pigs.

PS. You asked me about references and proofs but I notice you didnt post any controverting publications.



In other words, you don't know. Fine, that's what I thought.
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Old 01-30-2002, 11:32 AM   #25
MagiK
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quote:
Originally posted by Epona:

I am not a historical revisionist, I am an archaeologist.



One does in no way preclude the other. You can be both a historical revisionist AND an Archeologist. When you get around to publishing I would be greatly interested in reading your works, if you are so inclined please send them along my email address is on file here.

Do you specialize in a particular historical period? Are you planning on any digs soon? Im really enjoying the current shows they are having on the History channel regarding once lost cities that are being found via satellite imaging, it is really shedding some light on the basis for a lot of "Myths" and stories. I love living in this age [img]smile.gif[/img]
 
Old 01-30-2002, 11:42 AM   #26
Epona
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quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:


One does in no way preclude the other. You can be both a historical revisionist AND an Archeologist. When you get around to publishing I would be greatly interested in reading your works, if you are so inclined please send them along my email address is on file here.

Do you specialize in a particular historical period? Are you planning on any digs soon? Im really enjoying the current shows they are having on the History channel regarding once lost cities that are being found via satellite imaging, it is really shedding some light on the basis for a lot of "Myths" and stories. I love living in this age [img]smile.gif[/img]



And perhaps you would reciprocate, I would be most interested to see your published articles. You are so very obviously knowledgeable about your subject, given the reams of evidence you have provided to back up your arguements. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 01-30-2002, 11:45 AM   #27
Scronan
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Hi Everyone,

First off, Garnet, I really enjoyed your post. I think most people know I am a male, but it was very interesting to read your post, as for me being a somewhat quiet and shy male, my experiences growing up were similar to yours.

I grew up in a household with 3 brothers and one sister, and for some reason I tended to be looked at a "pseudo daughter" to help my mother who was the traditional housewife. So, yes I will say I spent a lot of time in the kitchen and learned to cook, as well as helping to raise my two infant brothers more so than my other older siblings.

Well, I never wore a dress or anything, but I can say without a doubt how very THANKFUL I am for everything I learned while doing this. The whole myth about "a womans place is in the kitchen" is such a load of crap! I realize this sterotype comes from our older male dominant culture, but I do not think that women or men are any better at cooking. This is a skill that requires practice, like anything else. I'm a pretty good cook and always get compliments at dinner parties for the dishes I bring. Another oddity there, am I wrong or are most of the top chefs in the world usually men? Again, the irony shows through here.

But while I was learning these skills, I also spent an equal amount of time chopping wood, doing car work and the other more typically "male" things with my father.

Today I can say with confidence that although I am very masculine, I have a very well developed sensitive side. And the funny part here is, not only does this intimidate other guys, a lot women don't know how to handle it either!

I have found it so strange in my experiences with dating how many women still want to have these sterotypical "breadwinner" types of men but still talk about this imaginary man who will share his feelings, be sensitive and look for a balanced partnership in his romantic life, not a house slave to do his laundry and cook meals.

However, when confronted with a more balanced male (like myself), they don't know what the hell to do. I always remember one woman in college who I just fell head over heels in love with. She had told me of her abusive father growing up, and used to date the biggest jerks who didnt respect her (hmm, see a trend here?). Being a little less experienced than I am now, I tried to show her that I wasn't like that, however she passed me by and continued to date guys who were jerks.

I realized later that I couldn't help her find out what she needed, she had to help herself. It was sad to see such a beautiful and talented person allow themselves to be mistreated, but that was her road to self discovery, and we can only teach ourselves that.

Yikes, I'm on the soapbox here, but my main point is, just be YOURSELF. Garnet, Galadria, thank you for sharing and I greatly admire that you have chosen to be different, as I have.

I knew there were a few more of us out there. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Best

Scronan
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Old 01-30-2002, 11:49 AM   #28
Barry the Sprout
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MagiK I had read your post. And your PM in fact, I will get round to replying to it in a few minutes I expect. You didn't seem to get what I was saying. You said that there are no famous women leading in the ancient world (something that is only partially true in the first place - you shouldn't say revisionist like it is a dirty word, there is a lot of merit in there. It is not revising to re-write unpalatable truths, it is revising to correct faults due to sexism. Epona is in a better position to argue this than me, but if you want me to then I will gladly do so). I then said that even were that true it doesn't matter to women now - they don't have to be constrained merely by the women that went before them. Then you replied with a line stating a 90lb woman could not be a football player. Well no... but does that have more to do with her size than her sex? I find it funny that to prove your point you couldn't take a normal case you had to take an extreme one. Could a 90lb man play football? What exactly were you trying to prove with that one.
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Old 01-30-2002, 11:57 AM   #29
MagiK
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quote:
Originally posted by Epona:


In other words, you don't know. Fine, that's what I thought.

No actually it equates to I do not remember which is different. And nice way to avoid the whole post.
 
Old 01-30-2002, 12:00 PM   #30
Garnet FalconDance
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MagiK,

Your reasoning is not only wandering, but faulty.

You begin with the premise that society has blurred the line between masculine and feminine (ok, not your exact words) and then proceed to imply that men are not allowed/expected to take the upper hand, the hard stance and be 'the man'. You then state that while there are effeminate men and masculine women, we should all recognize who *really* should be wearing the pants and who should be staying home making babies and cooking supper. Again, not your words but my interpretation.

Now, I know you are not a foaming-at-the-mouth chauvinist who thinks all women should be oppressed/repressed.

But then you decide to argue your point that women are not physically capable of the same tasks as men. Agreed to a great degree.

So, you start with froshing over behavorial traits which tend to be learned and you then turn your argument to biological differences which are inescapable. Make up your mind what you wish to discuss since these two topics are not mutually inclusive!
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