Ground Zero mosque

[Timber Loftis]

Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience.

My Taoist readings teach me that they're all basically the same thing. Bend and be straight. Submit and overcome.

I was thinking about this notion of what Cordoba means on my run tonight -- always a good time to think. I've been reading a lot of Ayn Rand lately, well one book, but Atlas Shrugged is quite a LOT of Ayn Rand, and I was thinking about how her philosophy, Objectivism, thinks about lying.

Lying to someone cedes power to them. The person who perpetrates the lie may "put one over on them" but he has also entered into a social contract with them -- one whereby he has altered reality by agreement, submitting to the wishes of what the other wants reality to be. As you may guess, for a philosophy that sees its metaphysics as "objective reality," its a pretty big loss of liberty to lie.

So, now, back to Rauf's comments about Cordoba. He states what it means to him, the harmonious existence of the races being a fair summary. Then Cerek states he's lying and that what he really means is "Islam pwns you noobs, lolz. /teabag" (Ok, j/k, but you get the point.)

Now, I highly doubt Rauf is home at night in be snickering into his pillow that he "put one over" on us chumps by redefining what "Cordoba House" and its mission means to the world. Moreover, even if is lying, he has nevertheless ceded power in making this lie, altered what reality is and what the writers of history will say when they talk about what "Cordoba House" means. He has submitted to your wishes and agreed to your altered reality.

So either way, you win.

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis My Taoist readings teach me that they're all basically the same thing. Bend and be straight. Submit and overcome. I was thinking about this notion of what Cordoba means on my run tonight -- always a good time to think. I've been reading a lot of Ayn Rand lately, well one book, but Atlas Shrugged is quite a LOT of Ayn Rand, and I was thinking about how her philosophy, Objectivism, thinks about lying. Lying to someone cedes power to them. The person who perpetrates the lie may "put one over on them" but he has also entered into a social contract with them -- one whereby he has altered reality by agreement, submitting to the wishes of what the other wants reality to be. As you may guess, for a philosophy that sees its metaphysics as "objective reality," its a pretty big loss of liberty to lie. So, now, back to Rauf's comments about Cordoba. He states what it means to him, the harmonious existence of the races being a fair summary. Then Cerek states he's lying and that what he really means is "Islam pwns you noobs, lolz. /teabag" (Ok, j/k, but you get the point.) Now, I highly doubt Rauf is home at night in be snickering into his pillow that he "put one over" on us chumps by redefining what "Cordoba House" and its mission means to the world. Moreover, even if is lying, he has nevertheless ceded power in making this lie, altered what reality is and what the writers of history will say when they talk about what "Cordoba House" means. He has submitted to your wishes and agreed to your altered reality. So either way, you win.

Interesting notion but I simply posted the definition for clarity. I found it interesting that the concepts of "peace" and "submission" are both parts of the definition.

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis As for that other site, why reference it here? I felt so compelled to leave there that I didn't just go away but rather deleted and removed my ability to post there. Ideas imported from there by reference won't get read by me and have no meaning to me. There are certain people there who bothered me so much that I, someone who can talk to about anyone, felt the need to leave. So, please don't rely on those references when talking to me. I don't want to trash any websites, but this keeps coming up.

I will post references in my posts from any sources I feel are relevant to the discussion. I don't need your approval or your agreement with the sources and - quite frankly - I don't care if you like it or not. You can choose not to consider the discussions there if you want, that's your choice. But don't try to tell me (or others) not to mention the site because you don't like it.

It doesn't matter if you left, other members have not, so I will continue to mention discussions on that forum when I think others might be interested in reading different perspectives on the issue.

[SpiritWarrior]

That said, this Oasis site tomfoolery sounds fun. Or not, I mean. How do I get there? Who must I slay to gain access?

Anyways, I am assuming it is some kinda sister site to IW, going on the fact that I see people mention it from time to time like it's a well-known secret. Was this the one Lennon Cook used to have in his sig many years ago or am I way off? Just curious, I already have my hands full with IW but if there's more crazy to be had I wouldn't mind a brief gander, at the very least...Also it must be visually appeasing, like IW, to meet my criteria.

[Firestormalpha]

Well, on the bright side of things Terry Jones has decided to cancel his book burning.

Fla. Minister Cancels Burning of Korans on 9/11

GAINESVILLE, Fla. - The leader of a small Florida church that espouses anti-Islam philosophy says he is canceling plans to burn copies of the Quran on Sept. 11. Pastor Terry Jones said Thursday that he decided to cancel his protest because the leader of a planned Islamic Center near ground zero has agreed to move its controversial location. The agreement couldn't be immediately confirmed. Jones' plans to burn Islam's holiest text Saturday sparked an international outcry. President Barack Obama, the top U.S. general in Afghanistan and several Christian leaders had urged Jones to reconsider his plans. They said his actions would endanger U.S. soldiers and provide a strong recruitment tool for Islamic extremists. Jones' protest also drew criticism from religious and political leaders from across the Muslim world.

had to delete the text that was here. An update to the article rendered my comments inaccurate.

Further updates indicate that Terry Jones has altered the event's status from cancelled to suspended. And here I thought some of that ultra-rare substance "common sense" was starting to come through.

[antryg]

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis My Taoist readings teach me that they're all basically the same thing. Bend and be straight. Submit and overcome. I was thinking about this notion of what Cordoba means on my run tonight -- always a good time to think. I've been reading a lot of Ayn Rand lately, well one book, but Atlas Shrugged is quite a LOT of Ayn Rand, and I was thinking about how her philosophy, Objectivism, thinks about lying. Lying to someone cedes power to them. The person who perpetrates the lie may "put one over on them" but he has also entered into a social contract with them -- one whereby he has altered reality by agreement, submitting to the wishes of what the other wants reality to be. As you may guess, for a philosophy that sees its metaphysics as "objective reality," its a pretty big loss of liberty to lie. So, now, back to Rauf's comments about Cordoba. He states what it means to him, the harmonious existence of the races being a fair summary. Then Cerek states he's lying and that what he really means is "Islam pwns you noobs, lolz. /teabag" (Ok, j/k, but you get the point.) Now, I highly doubt Rauf is home at night in be snickering into his pillow that he "put one over" on us chumps by redefining what "Cordoba House" and its mission means to the world. Moreover, even if is lying, he has nevertheless ceded power in making this lie, altered what reality is and what the writers of history will say when they talk about what "Cordoba House" means. He has submitted to your wishes and agreed to your altered reality. So either way, you win.

Timber, we may well take Rauf's word concerning his view of Cordoba. His view, like ours is based upon his understanding of history which he learned, from whatever schools, as well as his cultural understanding of those historical facts. The truth though is that what is considered historical fact isn't universally accepted, especially when it affects a culture's dominant religion.

He may have learned that Cordoba House was an example of Muslim religious tolerance leading to a Muslim cultural renaissance that benefited all. Spanish Christians, and by extension other Christians may see it as the desecration of churches and the martyrdom of the faithful. Then again a Maoist may look upon those events as an example of Muslim religious imperialism clearly showing the repression and oppression of the working class.

In my cynical view, historical fact is whatever a persons personal bias, education and upbringing says it is. Folk don't want to see/understand the other sides viewpoint since they already know the facts and truth.

[Bungleau]

In an update, the religious zealot idiot from Florida appears to be continuing with his plan to suspend burning the Koran.

Unfortunately, the religious zealot idiot from Kansas has apparently decided to pick up the ball. Calling the Floridian idiot a "false prophet … bullied by sissy, intolerant rebels worldwide into canceling plans to burn that blasphemous idol called the Koran", the religious moron from Kansas is now going to burn the Koran. And an American flag for good measure... apparently, if you're going to piss people off, you might as well get as many as you can.

I'm not going to bother to name names, because frankly, that's what they want. Publicity, infamy... who cares. They deserve to be treated like any other trolls.

Idiots.

[Timber Loftis]

September 13, 2010, 10:42 am

‘Everything Is on the Table,’ Imam Says of Plans
By ANNE BARNARD
Mario Tama/Getty Images Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf spoke at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York on Monday.
Update, 1:17 p.m. | Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf promised on Monday to resolve the fierce dispute around plans to build a Muslim community center and mosque two blocks from ground zero, while noting that he does not believe the spot chosen for the center is “hallowed ground.”

Speaking at the Council on Foreign Relations, he promised to find a way out of the current impasse around the planned center, which opponents say is insensitive to the memory of 9/11 and which supporters say sends the opposite message, that Muslims, like other Americans, object to and were victims of the attacks.

“Everything is on the table,” he said. “We really are focused on solving it” in a way that will be best for everyone concerned, he added. “I give you my pledge.”

Update | Also, he said it was “absolutely disingenuous” to say that “that block is hallowed ground,” noting that the block of office buildings two blocks from ground zero includes a bar (the Dakota Roadhouse), and an off-track betting office; a strip club is nearby.

He did not specify what compromises or measures might be part of the solution, although he welcomed what he said was a flood of good will and advice being offered, and suggested that a deliberate pause in moving forward was one possibility.

One council member asked Mr. Abdul Rauf if he would consider delaying the project to take that time to have more public conversations.

“Our advisers have been looking at every option — including that,” Mr. Abdul Rauf said. De facto, such a pause is already under way, since the center’s planners are mainly focused on addressing the furor, and the project still lacks blueprints, an architect or funds for the $100 million construction, let alone its ambitious programming, said to include athletics, cultural programs, interfaith dialogues and more.

Among the ideas under discussion, according to neighborhood allies of the project, is expanding the interfaith programs already planned at the center to include worship space for people of other faiths as well as Muslims, as Mr. Abdul Rauf suggested last week in an Op-Ed article in The Times.

The imam does not control the location of the center — the real estate developer Sharif el-Gamal does, and he and his supporters have said a move would not satisfy critics.

The imam appeared more relaxed than he has been on his other appearances since returning from a State Department-sponsored speaking tour to discuss life as a Muslim in America with Muslims abroad.

He thanked “those who have voiced their objections to our plans with civility, with respect and with open minds and hearts,” adding, “You affirm my belief in the decency and the morality of the American people.”

Explaining his conviction that the United States is a great place to be a Muslim and that Muslim faith is completely consistent with American citizenship, he said America gave Muslims a freedom they do not have in many Muslim countries — to choose voluntarily to observe their religion, or not.

And, asked by the Council president, Richard N. Haass, why — even if the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists — “so many terrorists are Muslims,” he said it was a problem with roots that are political, religious and socioeconomic — but mainly political.

He said that many Americans may sincerely not realize the distinction between the religion and people who commit violence in its name.

“I’m not at all suggesting that people against the center are actually extremists,” he said. “There is a lot of unawareness of Islam in this country.”

[johnny]

Spoken to several muslims around here about this, and the way i perceive things it's damned if you do and damned if you don't. The thing is that they see the move of the mosque away from it's original buildingsite as a declaration of war on islam, but at the same time SHOULD the mosque be build at the site, it's a victory from islam over the great satan.

Shoot me, i'm lost.

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by johnny Spoken to several muslims around here about this, and the way i perceive things it's damned if you do and damned if you don't. The thing is that they see the move of the mosque away from it's original buildingsite as a declaration of war on islam, but at the same time SHOULD the mosque be build at the site, it's a victory from islam over the great satan. Shoot me, i'm lost.

Now Johnny, that is just fear-mongered prejudice and hyperbole according to TL. I know you got your information from actual muslims, but TL heard the same thing on Faux News, so he knows it must be wrong.

In fact, are you certain these were real muslims and not Tea Party plants dressed like muslims? Please ask them to stop spreading this hyperbole, since it will only fuel more fear-mongered prejudice here in the US.

*sarcasm off*